M3 vs New Supra?

[BimmerMan33]

Supra definitely looks special, BMW I6 engine definitely makes sense in my opinion.
I feel that the "soul" in a turbocharged car is its torque delivery, they typically don't sound great since the turbo comes in the way of exhaust flow!
I really wished the new Supra had a MT option, BMW already has it developed for F30 series and they are providing the drivetrain anyway!
Hoping this is a sign that Toyota is trying to make sporty driving cars!

[New2Roundel]

I think the form factor is pretty good. If anything, it will love great lowered a bit on properly sized wheels. It's not exactly slow and I'm sure it will handle great as well.

But man, the idea that toyota needed to go to BMW for this is no bueno. To me, if they just left the name of FT-1 and not called it a supra, I'd be far more interested. To me, the soul of a company is with their performance cars and for Toyota, the Supra has a specific place. It evolved from basically a submodel to an extremely competent stand-alone model in the mkIV. And the numbers may indicate that the mkV beats the mkIV in all categories, it's using BMWs soul, IMO. The anonymous FT-1 name is perfectly suited to this vehicle. So yeah, it's a fail to me. I couldn't care less how it stacks up to our cars or any other performance vehicle.

[xcusem3]

Originally Posted by Montaver

I think the Supra looks great, particularly the rear quarter view with little ducktail spoiler. Its a proper sports car platform, significantly lighter than the M3, has a strong engine. I suspect it's going to be very impressive dynamically. Its basically a hardtop Z4 with a more aggressive setup. Whilst it has a Toyota badge its effectively all BMW.

All the swooning over the S65 is so overblown on this forum.

???? That's because the s65 really is THAT good...... and you can't get it in a damn SUV either like all other current (or coming shortly) ///M engines lol

[Bucki14]

Originally Posted by New2Roundel

I think the form factor is pretty good. If anything, it will love great lowered a bit on properly sized wheels. It's not exactly slow and I'm sure it will handle great as well.

But man, the idea that toyota needed to go to BMW for this is no bueno. To me, if they just left the name of FT-1 and not called it a supra, I'd be far more interested. To me, the soul of a company is with their performance cars and for Toyota, the Supra has a specific place. It evolved from basically a submodel to an extremely competent stand-alone model in the mkIV. And the numbers may indicate that the mkV beats the mkIV in all categories, it's using BMWs soul, IMO. The anonymous FT-1 name is perfectly suited to this vehicle. So yeah, it's a fail to me. I couldn't care less how it stacks up to our cars or any other performance vehicle.

Out of curiosity, how can we say the Supra name won't deliver before anyone has driven the car, recorded actual track times, and the mod scene delivers a healthy dose of whatever you thought of is available on the market?

People act as if Akio does not know what the Supra stands for (is the car we got exactly what he wanted and is capable of delivering....hell no, but that's how it goes in business), he is the reason why GR even exist today. The fact of the matter is we are in different times, the golden age of Japanese companies blowing tons of money on sports cars is over. Those that tried, (Honda) already showed how silly it really is. The dollar signs just don't add up and no board is going to sign off on it.

We live in a world of platform sharing and Toyota has no platform available nor an inline 6. The FT-1 concept was engineers way of expressing a want for another sports car. Akio saw the FT-1 and fell in love he demanded another sports car and guess what, his favorite is the Supra.

When money got to talking, deadlines, etc. were in discussion there was no way it would be done in-house. So when it came down to deciding who dominates the inline 6 space today it's BMW. There are so many collaborations amongst sports cars today for very similar reasons...

Moral of the story pray you have a board more willing to blow some cash..

[Dr. Dre]

Really, we should be thankful that they built this ugly turd. Give me an break.

Originally Posted by Richbot

this is a 2-seat sports car that even with all of the options available can just barely get to the base price of an E90 M3 from 10 years ago, and that's ignoring gas guzzler tax. The Zupra is, at heart, an M2 with a B58 and a bunch of weaght and wheelbase taken out. If you're cross-shopping a 2-seater with an M3 you need to look elsewhere, like the immense variety of p-car, jag, benz, vette, yada 2-seaters available for amazingly cheap with a few miles on them

The M2 is a good car, why wouldn't a lower M2 with 150lb and a foot of wheelbase removed be even better to drive? And between this and the "slightly modified benz SLC" Z4, I'll take this every time

The manual thing is a bummer, but the fastest drag supras were always the automatics anyway

y'all on some crack. It's a good car and we should be happy it got built at all when most of the development dollars are going to electrification and tall wagon. It's going to look like a spaceship on the road compared to most modern cars. The LC500 got tons of WTF's from people but they snap necks on the road. Toyota is doing a lot of things right these days

Here's what I don't "get". The Zupra is, in the end, a BMW underneath. Either BMW has seriously advanced the reliability of their newer engines, and the N55 was a good sign but still has some issues (mine was great until it pooped out an injector), or Toyota just said "F it, YOLO" to their reputation for reliability and figure people just won't care if it's a little broken sometimes. They would have had my attention with one of their corporate V6's that are so excellent and doing such a good job transitioning to sports-car duty in the Lotus

Personally I'm hoping for a $35k Celica Supra with the B48 but I doubt we'll get it here

[New2Roundel]

Originally Posted by Bucki14

Out of curiosity, how can we say the Supra name won't deliver before anyone has driven the car, recorded actual track times, and the mod scene delivers a healthy dose of whatever you thought of is available on the market?

People act as if Akio does not know what the Supra stands for (is the car we got exactly what he wanted and is capable of delivering....hell no, but that's how it goes in business), he is the reason why GR even exist today. The fact of the matter is we are in different times, the golden age of Japanese companies blowing tons of money on sports cars is over. Those that tried, (Honda) already showed how silly it really is. The dollar signs just don't add up and no board is going to sign off on it.

We live in a world of platform sharing and Toyota has no platform available nor an inline 6. The FT-1 concept was engineers way of expressing a want for another sports car. Akio saw the FT-1 and fell in love he demanded another sports car and guess what, his favorite is the Supra.

When money got to talking, deadlines, etc. were in discussion there was no way it would be done in-house. So when it came down to deciding who dominates the inline 6 space today it's BMW. There are so many collaborations amongst sports cars today for very similar reasons...

Perhaps my post was unclear---I don't care about the numbers. I could build a Yugo that could pull impressive numbers with enough money and time. Eh. That the company couldn't or didn't want to give us a Toyota-developed Supra is a Toyota problem, not a consumer problem. Hey that's fine. Call it an FT-1, not a supra.

Let's be straight here: I'm not looking for a continuation of the mkIV supra. I'm looking for the current version of what that car represented. At the time, it was cutting edge for production vehicles (at least in the US) from the Toyota brand. It had the best tech, an excellent chassis, and an engine that was both powerful and durable. Perfect. In 2018, I don't expect a turbo I6. I'm expecting to be wowed like I was with the mkIV. So, give us some a performance hybrid or full electric. That's the cutting edge of toyota tech at the moment.

[Bucki14]

Originally Posted by New2Roundel

Perhaps my post was unclear---I don't care about the numbers. I could build a Yugo that could pull impressive numbers with enough money and time. Eh. That the company couldn't or didn't want to give us a Toyota-developed Supra is a Toyota problem, not a consumer problem. Hey that's fine. Call it an FT-1, not a supra.

Let's be straight here: I'm not looking for a continuation of the mkIV supra. I'm looking for the current version of what that car represented. At the time, it was cutting edge for production vehicles (at least in the US) from the Toyota brand. It had the best tech, an excellent chassis, and an engine that was both powerful and durable. Perfect. In 2018, I don't expect a turbo I6. I'm expecting to be wowed like I was with the mkIV. So, give us some a performance hybrid or full electric. That's the cutting edge of toyota tech at the moment.

Once again, how do you know what you are looking for won't be delivered? Everyone is basing judgement off of the looks? Is it as great looking as the FT-1, nope.

But the chassis will be better....lower weight, better rigidity, lower CoG, etc. "Cutting edge you say" the only thing cutting edge about the MKiV was delivering a simple well performing car, excellent use of materials to bring down weight with powerful brakes and a strong engine that wasn't discovered until years later. The car we currently have today delivers that same notion. It just happens to be cosigned by BMW instead of all Toyota and you are incorrect it's definitely a consumer problem and I could show enormous amounts of data to illustrate the point.

The MKIV was so wowing they were selling them like crazy too, right??

I'm sorry but did you expect it to be a GTR competitor as well....

[burnrbr]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Here's what I don't "get". The Zupra is, in the end, a BMW underneath. Either BMW has seriously advanced the reliability of their newer engines, and the N55 was a good sign but still has some issues (mine was great until it pooped out an injector), or Toyota just said "F it, YOLO" to their reputation for reliability and figure people just won't care if it's a little broken sometimes. They would have had my attention with one of their corporate V6's that are so excellent and doing such a good job transitioning to sports-car duty in the Lotus

https://www.google.com/amp/s/jalopnik.com/how-bmw-and-toyota-overcame-a-culture-clash-to-design-t-1827831415/amp

"BMW couldn’t believe how extensive some of our quality and efficiency studies were as parts came into shape one by one. We would take every bit down to a fastener or rivet, and put it through our stringent quality control and a dozen other testing, we’d ship thousands of parts back to Japan for analysis. That is normal to us. Each piece we test at our level, they were now the ones surprised."

The above sounds promising for new Supra and Z4 owners.

[New2Roundel]

Originally Posted by Bucki14

Once again, how do you know what you are looking for won't be delivered? Everyone is basing judgement off of the looks? Is it as great looking as the FT-1, nope.

Did you even read my post. I made no comments about the looks. I made no comments about the performance. What makes this supra a non-starter for me is that it's a BMW. If I wanted a BMW, I'd buy one. In fact, I did. If I buy a toyota, I expect toyota engineering. I admire toyota's approach to building cars, which is substantially different than BMW. They tend of focus on different things. For better or worse, driving an IS feels different than driving a 3 series.

The car we currently have today delivers that same notion

Again, incorrect. The car we have delivers on BMWs notion of cutting edge. Toyota's engineering involvement appears to have been very limited with regard to the supra. That's not a supra. That's a performance car with BMW guts and a toyota badge. And frankly, one of the hallmarks of any toyota car, is both durability and reliability. BMW does a great job, by and large with the durability stuff. The reliability of most non-M BMWs is a complete disaster however. I would never buy a non-M BMW just from a reliability perspective. A huge selling factor of a toyota is now lost because of the BMW DNA in the car.

The MKIV was so wowing they were selling them like crazy too, right??

From that perspective, why offer a followup model at all? I guess I just expect too much from Toyota. When the LFA and the supra are the only top notch internal efforts from the brand in their entire existence, it doesn't say much for the performance cred of the company. I guess I shouldn't be surprised though, given that the typical phenotype of toyota DNA relates most strongly to dull or rugged vehicles.

I'm sorry but did you expect it to be a GTR competitor as well....

Yes, confused is correct. When did I mention anything about an expectation that the supra should be a GTR competitor? It's fine if that's what toyota intended, but it certainly makes sense that they went a rung or so lower. That's consistent with the supra's long-time placement.

[Bucki14]

Originally Posted by New2Roundel

If I buy a toyota, I expect toyota engineering. I admire toyota's approach to building cars, which is substantially different than BMW. They tend of focus on different things. For better or worse, driving an IS feels different than driving a 3 series.
.

Have you owned a MKIV at release or in recent time?

Originally Posted by New2Roundel

Again, incorrect. The car we have delivers on BMWs notion of cutting edge. Toyota's engineering involvement appears to have been very limited with regard to the supra. That's not a supra. That's a performance car with BMW guts and a toyota badge. And frankly, one of the hallmarks of any toyota car, is both durability and reliability. BMW does a great job, by and large with the durability stuff. The reliability of most non-M BMWs is a complete disaster however. I would never buy a non-M BMW just from a reliability perspective. A huge selling factor of a toyota is now lost because of the BMW DNA in the car. .

That is very true, and what appears to be is a fully built BMW badged Toyota. However, I wasn't on the engineering team from Toyota who reviewed any of the parts that went into this new car. Nor do I really know what involvement they had in the development of this joint venture. So I'm not sure how we can assume Toyota had zero influence on quality and such without them blatantly saying so.

Sadly, we won't ever get a 100% Toyota made Supra.. Do you have the right to be upset about that, absolutely. But, that doesn't mean Toyota isn't still out to try and deliver the best sports car they can given their restrictions that meet the initial requirements of what we feel the Supra is.

A simple, affordable inline-6 powered car with an influential mod culture.

We shall see if that shapes out to be, but like anything the good ol' days are the good ol days. I still want NA v8 m3s and Ferraris.

Originally Posted by New2Roundel

From that perspective, why offer a follow-up model at all?

If I had to take a wild guess, it's because it generates buzz.. They just happened to throw less cash at it to avoid having grossly wasted expenses (I can't blame them for it, it's not like I'm going to throw away a bunch of my cash just to make the people happy)

Originally Posted by New2Roundel

I'm sorry but did you expect it to be a GTR competitor as well.....

You didn't, you mentioned them making some ridiculous hybrid of a car that doesn't even stand for the long standing history of the Supra. Sadly, the Z4/Supra has a lot of similarities to the original Supra premise.

We also don't really know if this is just the base model and if there will be future models to come.

[Bucki14]

Originally Posted by burnrbr

https://www.google.com/amp/s/jalopnik.com/how-bmw-and-toyota-overcame-a-culture-clash-to-design-t-1827831415/amp

"BMW couldn’t believe how extensive some of our quality and efficiency studies were as parts came into shape one by one. We would take every bit down to a fastener or rivet, and put it through our stringent quality control and a dozen other testing, we’d ship thousands of parts back to Japan for analysis. That is normal to us. Each piece we test at our level, they were now the ones surprised."

The above sounds promising for new Supra and Z4 owners.

Sounds incredibly promising to me as well. They worked on the b58 for quite some time. I wonder if they had any involvement in the revision release. We may never know...

[TTony]

[TTony]

After seeing the concept car at SEMA, I can't even express how disappointed I am in the production model.

[whats77inaname]

Originally Posted by TTony

Here is HRE's take on the new Supra. You must scroll thru them all, pic your favorite and then look at post #10. :-)

HRE, meh. IMO, this dude nailed it. Too bad he wasn't on the Toyota design team.

[New2Roundel]

Originally Posted by Bucki14

Have you owned a MKIV at release or in recent time?

I'm not quite sure how that's relevant, but yes, I have some seat time in an all stock mkIV turbo back in the mid-90s. What a wonderful experience. This was before anyone really paid attention to these, but it was immediately obvious how special this car was. It had a solidity to it that was not common in Asian cars, particularly at the time.

However, I wasn't on the engineering team from Toyota who reviewed any of the parts that went into this new car. Nor do I really know what involvement they had in the development of this joint venture. So I'm not sure how we can assume Toyota had zero influence on quality and such without them blatantly saying so.

I certainly can't give you exact percentages of how much of the Supra is based on heavy input from toyota vs BMW. But what we do know is that the engine, transmission, and electronics are 100% from BMW. The platform is "shared", but there's no indication that Toyota had any involvement in the very early platform engineering. What I've read is that this is the first involvement Gazoo Racing has on a regular production car, but that it was more of a tuning role---dampers/springs/exhaust, that type of thing. I mean the car is made in Europe, in a factory that has a history of producing BMW products. Toyota would be smart to minimize their involvement here, since they're already relying on BMW for so much.

Sadly, we won't ever get a 100% Toyota made Supra.. Do you have the right to be upset about that, absolutely. But, that doesn't mean Toyota isn't still out to try and deliver the best sports car they can given their restrictions that meet the initial requirements of what we feel the Supra is.

It would appear that you are definitely correct on your first point. I also agree that given all of the competition for funds from within the company, giving most of the heavy lifting for the supra to another company made the most financial sense. However, the Toyota couldn't figure out an internal solution with their resources, really points to a weakness of the organization. They really give so little consideration to sports cars these days, which is such a shame. I don't support such companies with my own money, however.

You didn't, you mentioned them making some ridiculous hybrid of a car that doesn't even stand for the long standing history of the Supra. Sadly, the Z4/Supra has a lot of similarities to the original Supra premise.

Such a premise is completely true with the history of a supra. The supra was the cutting edge of performance for the US market. It had the best chassis and engine. The cutting edge of engine tech for toyota at the current time is simply not an I6 engine---and it doesn't need to be. I mean, the I6 turbo layout, the availability of an automatic, and the coupe styling are about the only similarities between the two, however.

[The_Reaper]

like its been said its an Auto Z4.... PASS


Honestly i rather still have the MK4 but for the money i rather get an M4 for same price as a decent MK4

[Transfer]

I like it. But I wouldn't buy one.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by whats77inaname

HRE, meh. IMO, this dude nailed it. Too bad he wasn't on the Toyota design team.

Wow, I agree. What an alluring rendering. THIS version should be made.

[Richbot]

ew, what? no.

[R3dliner]

I get it that they wanted to keep the inline 6 tradition, but shit GTR did with the VR engine. They could have used the newly developed V6 TT. IMO looks like a blown up BRZ/FRS.

[skidawgz]

I think the new Supra looks OK.

Like:
Another performance car out there

Dislike:
Toyota did not build their own unique car, BMW rebuilt a Japanese classic
no manual
meh specs on paper

[Richbot]

A Turner rep recently mentioned the Toyota badges have BMW part numbers