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      07-07-2020, 04:44 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
>> If anything, it instills over-confidence because it smooths out your imperfections or improper technique.

The MDM does no such thing...
Of course it can lol.

As dparm mentioned, there are many scenarios where MDM or similar DSC systems will come into play that would inspire driver confidence compared to having the systems fully off. Particularly where lack of proper technique comes into play.

In dogbones analysis of MDM he also noted that it's intervening without the light on the dash flickering. MDM is constantly applying small amounts of brake pressure and at times power cuts to keep the car under control while exhibiting small or minimal intervention.

The whole nature of these types of systems is to inspire confidence and keep the car under control (which also enhances confidence) when driving at or past the limit. Next time you have a wet track day do a session with MDM on and halfway through switch everything off - I bet you'll feel more confident in the car pushing around a wet track with MDM on then with everything off.. It might not be faster but you can be soooo much more aggressive knowing the systems are there to save you.
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      07-07-2020, 04:45 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRLane View Post
I believe anything under 2 mins is fast at HPR for any car. The NASA TT1 and TT3 times from a couple weeks back were 1:56 and 1:58, although it was a scorcher of weekend at >95 degrees outside.

For those unfamiliar with HPR here's a great clip of Mark Melchior ripping 1:57 in a e9x M3. Not sure how prepped it is but guessing it's not stock. Turn 1 after the front straight is where I spun left.
I bought Mark's car from him when he got the F80. The fastest we've run around HPR on 200tw tires in the E92 is 1:55s in One Lap of America trim (moderate aero, ~3450lbs w/ driver, 350whp).

I may try to come back for a NASA event at HPR later this year as this is a perfect TT3 car and I'd like to see how close I can get to (my) lap record for the class. I suspect with the repave and newer curbing I could get real close.
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      07-07-2020, 05:13 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dparm View Post
Example 1:

If I am too abrupt with the throttle, especially at corner exit, the car can easily spin without DSC/MDM. A good driver can usually catch it or know the car's limits well enough to get back to full throttle when grip allows.

With DSC/MDM engaged, the car will simply cut the power and you don't need to come off the gas or countersteer. This only reinforces said bad habit. It's twice as bad if the light doesn't flash or the intervention is subtle, because you think the car has more grip than it really does. If I tell that person to turn DSC/MDM off, they'll probably end up facing the wrong direction at the exit curbing.


Example 2:

If I am entering a corner too fast, I might miss the apex or resort to an overly-aggressive trailbrake that causes the rear to come around. Best case I brake a little harder and maybe scrub too much speed, and immediately realize my mistake for the next time around.

With DSC/MDM engaged, the car detects yaw and will quickly drag one of the brakes or maybe even cut power a little bit to tuck the nose in. While no driver can brake an individual wheel (obviously), this only reinforces in your mind how fast you THINK you can take that corner. Again, if I tell that person to turn off DSC/MDM, they'll understeer right past the apex and totally ruin the lap time.
I usually tell students in normal front-engine rear-drive cars to disable the stability/traction control precisely to avoid them getting used to mashing the throttle leaving an apex while still pinching the wheel without reaping the consequences.

So many students are still closing the steering wheel and have transitioned to WOT. MDM/etc cuts throttle and selectively applies brakes while they are doing this, preventing the spin
Alternatively, asked the student to drive without the traction control indicator lights up. And keep the electronic on.

Tough love here can be very expansive for your student
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      07-07-2020, 05:33 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Alternatively, asked the student to drive without the traction control indicator lights up. And keep the electronic on.

Tough love here can be very expansive for your student
The whole point is to build good habits and proper technique early on so a new track driver has the fundamentals to progression appropriately.

Often times systems like MDM result in the formation of bad habits when a driver becomes overly reliant on the systems. The goal is to avoid this. If you want to drive with MDM on that's fine, but you need to understand what it's doing for you.
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      07-07-2020, 05:39 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Alternatively, asked the student to drive without the traction control indicator lights up. And keep the electronic on.

Tough love here can be very expansive for your student
I haven't had a student in the wall yet. I discuss it with them, I don't force them to do anything.

The whole point is for them to learn how to drive. It's easy to correct when driving slow but later on it becomes harder and harder.
The objective is not time X at the track. The objective is to learn how to drive.

I recall a student with a 997.2 GT3. He had a set of DHs he wanted to run. I told him no problem, but I was not getting into the car if he ran those tires. I was happy to sign him off to Solo.
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      07-07-2020, 05:53 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
I haven't had a student in the wall yet. I discuss it with them, I don't force them to do anything.

The whole point is for them to learn how to drive. It's easy to correct when driving slow but later on it becomes harder and harder.
The objective is not time X at the track. The objective is to learn how to drive.

I recall a student with a 997.2 GT3. He had a set of DHs he wanted to run. I told him no problem, but I was not getting into the car if he ran those tires. I was happy to sign him off to Solo.
Obviously if a student is at a point where turning the systems off would be dangerous the instructor would not do so. But a good student reaches a point where, to improve their driving further, the next step is to learn and understand how to drive the vehicle without the use of the safety systems. Often they will initially be slower, or significantly slower then they were previously with everything on as it's intimidating making that transition for the first time. But like SYT_Shadow said, the goal is never lap times, it's improving a students driving ability.

The whole point of a 'performance DSC' setting like MDM is to inspire confidence for the beginner or intermediate driver. It allows poor technique or instances of poor technique to prevent things from going to shit. It's there as a safety feature - and a safety net inspires confidence. At a certain point MDM becomes too intrusive and actually prevents you from going faster. But by the time you're at that point you're likely a capable enough driver to drive competently with the systems fully off and benefit from it.
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      07-30-2020, 04:41 AM   #51
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Thanks for posting the story/lessons learned. I fly F-18s for a living and one of the most important qualities we look for in pilots is someone that can freely admit their mistakes without blaming something or someone else, learn from it, and move on. I'm in the process of taking my dual use daily/track M3 up a few pegs with a bit more power, better brakes and a new wheel/tire setup and this is a good look at why I need to keep my expectations in check and avoid chasing an arbitrary lap time!
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