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      12-12-2017, 10:10 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
Granted the car mags are just payola masquerading as journalism - I'm loving how they dote praise upon the Alfa, yet also note 'never had one to test that didn't at least throw a CEL' - kind of a big deal when it costs that much, and the dealership is in a strip mall 90 minutes away (probably has s/t to do with those huge pull-out ads they pay for?). they also pepper their praise of Audi with (accurate) quotes like 'totally without personality' and note how similar they are to their VW brethren.

But I have to agree with some of their prose - mostly the part about how BMW has abandoned the 'ultimate driving machine' ethos, and is now chasing somebody else's idea of luxury. I would, however, disagree with those who say they were always head and shoulders above the competition. More accurate is that they always were ahead in that niche. IIRC, the original M3 had heavy competition and didn't sell that well b/c it was so rough, and sort of weird (they did, after all, more or less create the segment of affordable sports-sedans). Things that are so perfect for a niche will seldom be desired by the masses. I'm kind of hoping that they will turn back and pull the M cars (and the whole 2 series) out into a dedicated performance sub-brand, rather than turn the //M into a glorified marketing tool like AMG has become.
Like your post! I see the dilution of the brand in general.. But I also dont really care that much so long as they keep coming out with at least a few true performance oriented vehicles that have bonafide track credentials and perform beautifully on the street. And, continue offering manual transmissions in those models! I agree that the 3 series sedan, long considered a true sport sedan in its own right, and, perhaps, the very embodiment of the category, is no longer a 'sport sedan', using its original credentials as the basis. And, the M3 with its larger size and nod to luxury, and sewing-machine-clatter sound is oft no longer considered the epitome of sport sedans despite its awesome engine (fixed pretty well if you buy it with the competition pack). However, the M2, I believe, fits the original mold fairly well, as does the M240i. The M2 holds its own against the competition and is a blast to drive on the street as well as the track as practically all the professional reviewers can and have attested to. Plus, its a terrific value. I know there are those who will claim the interior is not as nice as Audi, for example.. But isnt that precisely the emphasis we want to avoid, those of us who are more performance oriented and interested in seeing BMW return to its roots in at least one offering? This model is often favorably compared to what, in yesteryear, was considered the epitome of M3s, the E46, only updated.

To sum up, Im not happy about Bmw's direction, but so long as they offer at least one model that offers more than a passing nod to their former character at a reasonable price, I can forgive them.
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      12-12-2017, 10:22 AM   #46
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The criticism is warranted but C&D has clamped down on it because it's profitable for them to take a strong hard stance. BMW is flawed but C&D is annoying/whiny. I hope they enjoy their Giulia while it depreciates like a rock and gets stuck perpetually in the shop. I hope rubbing their hands on hard plastic is enjoyable to them.

Anyhow, like others have said, save for the 2-series, X5M, and a couple other models, BMW really don't make anything worth buying anymore if you are an enthusiast. The steering feel and chassis balance of my E90 is gone for good and will never return. So why should I still be a fanboy? I aspire to own Porsches and F-types now. Now when it comes to practical all-rounders, cars like the new 5-series, new X3, X1, X5 are best in class.

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      12-12-2017, 10:29 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boostm3 View Post
Its not the M Performance goodies which give the M3 a performance advantage; its the Competition Pkg which is purported to turn the M3/4 what it should have been originally, and allowed it to truly shine. Without that, comparative review have declared it sorely lacking.
And the problem is that once you had Competition pkg and a couple other options the price hits near $80K easily. Even after negotiations that's too much coin when cars like the F-type and Boxster/Cayman exist.
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      12-12-2017, 10:44 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by impulsE89 View Post
Here is my take (more ranting)
The track tests are moot. Few of us can afford to track such a high maintenance and expensive car. Real track rats drive Miatas, old 911s , with roll cages, and certain Beemers. and other assorted imports depending on skills. If you did have an M5 with 600 HP would you really track it and if not what then? 185mph on the interstate? get real. The 755 hp Corvette at $125K + Can any of us who are not professionals actually handle it. Ever see a car blow over at 150+? after being touched lightly.
People will buy them because they can. You will find them at Cars and Coffee.
End of rant
I wish I could appreciate this more than once. Very well put and my sentiments exactly.
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      12-12-2017, 11:30 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by impulsE89 View Post
Here is my take (more ranting)
The track tests are moot. Few of us can afford to track such a high maintenance and expensive car. Real track rats drive Miatas, old 911s , with roll cages, and certain Beemers. and other assorted imports depending on skills. If you did have an M5 with 600 HP would you really track it and if not what then? 185mph on the interstate? get real. The 755 hp Corvette at $125K + Can any of us who are not professionals actually handle it. Ever see a car blow over at 150+? after being touched lightly.
People will buy them because they can. You will find them at Cars and Coffee.
End of rant
BMW realizes this and are making more Cars and Coffee type vehicles. Let's make m3's larger, more options, more comfort and more exclusive so we can charge more and more.
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      12-12-2017, 11:51 AM   #50
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Bit late to the game but perhaps folks generally are being BMW homers and not so objective.

The 3 series is second only to the Accord for most 10 best list appearances: by a long shot. They didn't make it this year? Gee...wonder why? Could it be on its lack of merits

People for decades (yes decades) have complained to the car rags via letters to the editor about BMW bias (and general Euro) when cars with less 'stats' win comparos.

I've been reading 2 of the major rags for over 25 years as a subscriber: there is no new shift, this has been happening over time.

Take a gander at the top 10 list in each of the past 30 years: you will see trends including base model cars being more likely to be on the list (price cut off): we should not have to raise the price above 70K to get an M3 on there, sorry: that's ridiculous when great handling sub 40K cars exist.

Who here can honestly say a 428i is a better handling and riding car then a Camaro V6?

You are kidding yourself if you say so, its not even close in terms of ride dynamics and steering response. Rental class camaros have a great chassis, the common BMW lease car a soft, numb, not fun chassis setup. All the while being more expensive then other cars, so if it cost more but is *not* more fun to drive, why would we expect it to win a car magazine comparison?

BMW engineers want to design fun things: but when sales data dictate more soft large american vehicles for haus fraus, that's what they deliver.

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      12-12-2017, 12:25 PM   #51
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Just look at what motor journalists now go through. Lots of pampering in 50-star hotels and what not.

Always keep that in mind and have your own opinion.
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      12-12-2017, 12:39 PM   #52
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I quit reading this thread at the beginning of Page 2. Most of you are so off-base about how the magazine industry works, how a critical review is conceived and written, and the part bias plays in anything with an opinion attached, it's viscerally sickening.

(Background: I was a music critic for a major daily newspaper for a decade and spent nearly two decades in journalism, and I'm now in advertising and marketing for a large fashion retailer. I've not only seen both sides, I've worked on both sides. And I have friends in auto journalism, so I know.)

To the conspiracy theorists: Advertising revenue has far, far less influence on editorial content than you believe. I'm not going to say it has no influence, but understand this: relative editorial independence from advertising is the ONLY reason magazines with critical content have credibility and viability of ANY sort -- and of the American car mags, C&D does it best. By far. Always has. So, OP: keep your subscription. It's as good as a printed general-interest auto mag gets in this country.

To the quip about payola: That scandal changed the business structure of two entire major industries: music recording and broadcast. Do you seriously think mags would even entertain that model on its face? It's illegal. Yes, there are indirect ways around it that happen all of the time, but NONE of those are direct payoffs or promises of ad revenue in exchange for positive coverage or inclusion. If ANY critically journalistic periodical -- automotive or otherwise -- were caught doing that, it would have to be shuttered immediately. Mags such as C&D exist in fear of that very accusation, and that's why it doesn't happen -- and it's also a big reason why critical mags such as C&D are struggling so much compared to the likes of, say, Vogue, which has no critical content. Skeptics who assume everything is a conspiracy and collusion rules everywhere either don't or won't understand how critical journalism works.

I'm going to leave a discussion of bias out of this. It exists, but it is not nearly as pervasive as many think -- and it's mostly on an individual level.

Finally, to those who think BMW (or any car) should have a permanent place in the 10Best list: Riiiight. One poster said it best: The competition has caught up and, in many categories, surpassed it. BMW is no longer an enthusiast brand (and I would argue that ///M is no longer a true enthusiast brand, either), and BMW AG is now far more concerned with profits over plaudits. What it is doing now in full scale is using its heritage and brand to sell cars that are not truly reflective of that heritage. It's only going to get worse.
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      12-12-2017, 01:05 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by impulsE89 View Post
Here is my take (more ranting)
The track tests are moot.
Theyre useful in one way: to combat the sentiments of those who claim bmw doesnt make any serious performance vehicles anymore. If an M2 comes within .01 seconds of a Caymen S or a Shelby 350 or an RS3 on a major track, to me, that blows a hole in that argument.
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      12-12-2017, 01:29 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boostm3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by impulsE89 View Post
Here is my take (more ranting)
The track tests are moot.
Theyre useful in one way: to combat the sentiments of those who claim bmw doesnt make any serious performance vehicles anymore. If an M2 comes within .01 seconds of a Caymen S or a Shelby 350 on a major track, to me, that blows a hole in that argument.
You guys honestly think track tests don't matter? Are Bmw M cars not meant to be performance vehicles? If they are, how would you quantify? Lap times do matter. The over stressing of 0-60 times however doesn't mean much after a point.

And I agree the m2 is great and the only current Bmw I would seriously consider owning but it's a sad state when only one car, the lowliest M car, is holding up the brand to many enthusiasts.
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      12-12-2017, 02:00 PM   #55
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I don't think you need a magazine to tell you that BMW is falling behind especially the M cars.

The last exciting M car for me, was the 1M.

I rather have the RS3 then the M2.
I rather have the C63 then the M3.
Compared to my F10 M5, I rather have the new E63.

The Audi RS market hits the sporty side. MBZ AMG's are now sportier then the BMW with a nicer interior.

There was a time when I didn't even think about Audi's or MBZ's when cross shopping a M car but the M has lost a lot of its identity... After the F10, I am probably stepping away from BMW till they make exciting cars again.

As an avid lover of cars, the M losing its way hurts all of us.
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      12-12-2017, 02:03 PM   #56
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Those who glorify BMW as an historically performance-oriented company are overlooking BMW's more humble roots and decades of struggle to find and hone its identity. BTW, brand grooming is not a stagnant process. Hard to fault BMW for ensuring a broad-spectrum higher-volume-seeking conquest-thirsty lineup. Mass profitability is the surest way to fund the lower-volume machines that we forum addicts crave. BMW is doing its duty to stay ahead of changing market trends, heavier competition, and quick-changing technologies. It's quite a juggling act; I doubt that BMW will betray its performance products within a broader scope of future-looking brand finessing.
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      12-12-2017, 02:11 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fkim119 View Post
The last exciting M car for me, was the M1.
Wow. True hard-core, old school enthusiast. Pretty much NO M car since the first ever built excites you. Man I would have at least gone to the E30 M3. Or back-tracked to my beloved Z4 M Coupe. But to make the first M the ONLY exciting M?

Ballah.

THIS is the M1.



This is the 1M.

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      12-12-2017, 02:16 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Wow. True hard-core, old school enthusiast. Pretty much NO M car since the first ever built excites you. Man I would have at least gone to the E30 M3. Or back-tracked to my beloved Z4 M Coupe. But to make the first M the ONLY exciting M?

Ballah.

THIS is the M1.



This is the 1M.

My apologies. Was referencing the 1M .
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      12-12-2017, 02:36 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
I quit reading this thread at the beginning of Page 2. Most of you are so off-base about how the magazine industry works, how a critical review is conceived and written, and the part bias plays in anything with an opinion attached, it's viscerally sickening.
Bra. F**king. Vo. Fantastic take.

As a marketing executive that has worked on both sides, and in a few short stints in the automotive aftermarket buying media, as well as having lived a few stints on the MEDIA side of the automotive publishing industry pitching editorial content, I have UNIQUE insights into this matter.

There's nothing to read between the lines. The reason why BMW is no longer on the C&D top 10 list, is they don't make a car worthy of inclusion now. Be it competition has caught up and surpassed, BMW has regressed, or the tastes and criteria for judging has slowly evolved over time to no longer favor BMWs, or a combination of all three. It has nothing to do with advertising budget, since BMW had a long streak of appearing on the top 10 list for decades, and budgets change year over year yet during the lean years BMW still made the top 10.

All I will add is this. Where there's smoke there's fire. No matter how you slice it, BMW has missed the mark in either gauging competitive performance of the market, their own infallibility, or the American market in general. Be that due to bigger fish to fry (Chinese market), complacency (you can only lead for so long), no longer care, or combination of all three, there's no denying that the car that made the C&D top 10 list 2x years in a row, no longer makes a car worthy of inclusion.
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      12-12-2017, 02:42 PM   #60
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IMHO BMW lost it's way by confusing themselves. First and foremost they have way too many gizmos in new BMW, tech this and tech that, most of it is just useless shite.

Then they try to go luxury instead of sporty and soften the ride but the interiors are not even CLOSE to Audi or the newer Mercedes. So now they are lost, not a leader at anything.

They need to at least sub out the M sedans and Coupes with a M-Raw or something that strips out a lot of shite and offers true handling and fun factor.
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      12-12-2017, 02:46 PM   #61
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Here's how biased C&D has become.. Note this excerpt from their Ride Sharing article in the same issue:

"Both the M240i and the M2 return by right of having made 10Best last year, and their appeal remains compelling. The similarities between the models get close to confusing; both wear M badges, although the M240i is the lesser M Performance line rather than a true single integer M car, and both are powered by turbocharged 3 liter inline six engines turning (at least) their rear wheels. As such, the $8200 upcharge for the M2 ($54,495, unoptioned) looks at first sight like some kind of outrageous M tax )

I just went to bmwusa.com to equip an '18 m240i similarly to how the M2 comes equipped 'unoptioned'.. Instead of an upcharge, the M2 is over $1000 LESS.. Now which has the 'upcharge'? Whether its bias or fake news, its wrong. The M2 is a good value, period.
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      12-12-2017, 03:08 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boostm3 View Post
As such, the $8200 upcharge for the M2 ($54,495, unoptioned) looks at first sight like some kind of outrageous M tax[/b] )
You did what C&D didn't waste white space explaining since the car didn't make 10Best: explain ad minutiae what the vast majority of readers don't give a whit about. The context is inappropriate. That's why 'at first sight' is used in the piece. It's called a qualification. Great! You know better. Perhaps in its review of the M2, C&D mentions this, eh?

Rule No. 1 in critical journalism: Understand your readership's expectations, and don't muddy up copy with information that readership doesn't expect or need. C&D does this well, and does that above.

I'm tellin' y'all: quit being skeptics about criticism. It's people like you that are killing criticism of all varieties in Western media -- and trust me: the 'other side' is far darker.
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      12-12-2017, 03:11 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boostm3 View Post
Here's how biased C&D has become.. Note this excerpt from their Ride Sharing article in the same issue:

"Both the M240i and the M2 return by right of having made 10Best last year, and their appeal remains compelling. The similarities between the models get close to confusing; both wear M badges, although the M240i is the lesser M Performance line rather than a true single integer M car, and both are powered by turbocharged 3 liter inline six engines turning (at least) their rear wheels. As such, the $8200 upcharge for the M2 ($54,495, unoptioned) looks at first sight like some kind of outrageous M tax )

I just went to bmwusa.com to equip an '18 m240i similarly to how the M2 comes equipped 'unoptioned'.. Instead of an upcharge, the M2 is over $1000 LESS.. Now which has the 'upcharge'? Whether its bias or fake news, its wrong. The M2 is a good value, period.
You need to post the whole article because that sentence is very out of context. Its setting up the point that while the m240i and m2 are both RWD 2 series powered by n55, the m2 is over $8k more. It can be easy to see that $8k as an outrageous M tax....... BUT after driving the car you realize they are leagues apart. M2 having the m3 underpinnings w/ LSD, more power, more cooling, better suspension, wider track width and tires, as well as lots of cool exterior and interior styling details to set it apart.
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      12-12-2017, 03:11 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boostm3 View Post
Here's how biased C&D has become.. Note this excerpt from their Ride Sharing article in the same issue:

"Both the M240i and the M2 return by right of having made 10Best last year, and their appeal remains compelling. The similarities between the models get close to confusing; both wear M badges, although the M240i is the lesser M Performance line rather than a true single integer M car, and both are powered by turbocharged 3 liter inline six engines turning (at least) their rear wheels. As such, the $8200 upcharge for the M2 ($54,495, unoptioned) looks at first sight like some kind of outrageous M tax )

I just went to bmwusa.com to equip an '18 m240i similarly to how the M2 comes equipped 'unoptioned'.. Instead of an upcharge, the M2 is over $1000 LESS.. Now which has the 'upcharge'? Whether its bias or fake news, its wrong. The M2 is a good value, period.
There is no mention of them comparing it to a “similarly equipped” M240i, which when you compare base price to base price it is indeed right around $8K more.
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      12-12-2017, 03:14 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
You did what C&D didn't waste white space explaining since the car didn't make 10Best: explain ad minutiae what the vast majority of readers don't give a whit about. The context is inappropriate. That's why 'at first sight' is used in the piece. It's called a qualification. Great! You know better. Perhaps in its review of the M2, C&D mentions this, eh?

Rule No. 1 in critical journalism: Understand your readership's expectations, and don't muddy up copy with information that readership doesn't expect or need. C&D does this well, and does that above.

I'm tellin' y'all: quit being skeptics about criticism. It's people like you that are killing criticism of all varieties in Western media -- and trust me: the 'other side' is far darker.
Huh? They put it out there as a fact, sans any qualifiers, leaving an indellible mark in the uninitiated reader's mind, something that is fake news. If the conclusion they came to was indeed 'at first sight', why not correct it? Irresponsible journalism? I think so. And if the item they put out there is 'minutiae', why mention it at all if not to make one of the two cars appear undesirable?
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      12-12-2017, 03:20 PM   #66
Viffermike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boostm3 View Post
Huh? They put it out there as a fact, sans any qualifiers, leaving an indellible mark in the uninitiated reader's mind, something that is fake news. If the conclusion they came to was indeed 'at first sight', why not correct it? Irresponsible journalism? I think so. And if the item they put out there is 'minutiae', why mention it at all if not to make one of the two cars appear undesirable?
IT'S NOT FAKE NEWS. You've got my take and those of two others that properly contextualize what you chose to isolate and consider on its own island. If anything, your doing of that is what creates the fakeness.

Ever hear of a quote taken out of context? You've done THE EXACT SAME THING.

Please quit complaining about something that doesn't exist until you yourself manufacture it. And if you can't wrap your head around that concept ... please leave issues like this one to those of us who can.

"at first sight". Key phrase, man. Key phrase.
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Last edited by Viffermike; 12-12-2017 at 04:50 PM.
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