Our Shop car's two new friends... E90/E92 M3 twin turbo kit

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by Billj747

Would require a little work like any other system but what about the Motec M1:

http://www.motec.com.au/m1/m1overview/

Motec M1 is a great piece of engineering, basically the next advancement of the M800 "Gold Box". Right now, the M1 only has support for the GTR + UGR's TT-Aventador, so you'd be starting from 100% scratch. Honestly, you could save a little money on the EMS, go with the M800 & use a product more tuners are familiar with. From reading about the M1, it's biggest selling point is going to be DI Driver Control.

Originally Posted by regular guy

BTW, when I looked at using Motec, the hardware quote was right at ~$20k. The problem with Motec is they nickel and dime you for every feature and every module you need.

The end all, be all problem of using Motec or Pectel = $$$$$ Great stuff though, but you can go with a ProEFI / Infinity for about half the cost and same (maybe more features)

Originally Posted by regular guy

Bringing this back to Gintani. I think they should also try a standalone for the S65. That would be a great project. Maybe one of their S65 turbo customers would want to go that route. It's a great way to get one of these beasts on an engine dyno and see what it really has; then put it on the Dynojet and see what it makes to the wheels. It would be another great project to watch.

I agree, whether you go with ProEFI/Infinity, I think that going standalone will speed up the tuning (and not fighting the OEM DME programming) in addition to some really cool features like FlexFuel Mapping, Multiple Boost Strategies, and just being safer since it'll be 100% setup for Twin Turbo application (overboost protection, fault codes, etc).

Obvious problem Gintani faces is by adding in a standalone, the cost of the turbo kits just gone up ~$10k (between hardware & tuning). More than likely, the same thing that happened to the HPF E46 M3 kits will happen on the E9x M3 -- People will buy the hardware (manifolds, piping, etc), and then switch to a different EMS.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

Obvious problem Gintani faces is by adding in a standalone, the cost of the turbo kits just gone up ~$10k (between hardware & tuning). More than likely, the same thing that happened to the HPF E46 M3 kits will happen on the E9x M3 -- People will buy the hardware (manifolds, piping, etc), and then switch to a different EMS.

In my case, the cost burden is for development of a non-existing product. But if it's already been done, sometimes I wonder how much it would cost to do for the next guy. At least half of my expenses will be development costs (if not more than half). Take out the development costs and you could probably squeeze into a standalone Infinity for about $5k-$6k.

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by regular guy

In my case, the cost burden is for development of a non-existing product. But if it's already been done, sometimes I wonder how much it would cost to do for the next guy. At least half of my expenses will be development costs (if not more than half). Take out the development costs and you could probably squeeze into a standalone Infinity for about $5k-$6k.

I mean, if you're doing a shop sponsored build you should save on certain parts (the EMS, wiring, etc) since you're going to be volunteering your car up for R&D. Obviously it depends how long it would take and if the build goes beyond the expected ETA, but it's not too far fetched to think you'd break even if everything stayed on track.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

I mean, if you're doing a shop sponsored build you should save on certain parts (the EMS, wiring, etc) since you're going to be volunteering your car up for R&D. Obviously it depends how long it would take and if the build goes beyond the expected ETA, but it's not too far fetched to think you'd break even if everything stayed on track.

Agreed...IF it's a sponsored build. For non-sponsored builds, I would expect the people paying for the R&D (like myself) would negotiate some of the intellectual property rights to the final results. Wiring harnesses aren't really intellectual property...but the tuning is. I won't have rights to the hardware like harnesses, but I will have rights to the tuning.

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Agreed...IF it's a sponsored build. For non-sponsored builds, I would expect the people paying for the R&D (like myself) would negotiate some of the intellectual property rights to the final results. Wiring harnesses aren't really intellectual property...but the tuning is. I won't have rights to the hardware like harnesses, but I will have rights to the tuning.

Not sure why you'd get "rights" to anything, especially with the tuning because you didn't contribute to the development of the software being utilized by the EMS? The physical turbo kit could be fabricated and setup to work with any EMS (stock DME or standalone), while the tuning on the S65 would be no different then a Porsche Turbo Mezger motor or custom TT-LSA Motor. It's still the same tuning tables that are just adjusted to each motor/turbo setup/etc.

Both the ProEFI & Infinity use VE (Volumetric Efficiency) as the tuning foundation, so ~80% of the base tuning is completed by knowing the VE of the motor, the Injectors being used & Target AFR. From there it's fine tuning the Ignition, Cam Timing, Boost & special features unique to the EMS (Anti-Lag/Traction Control, Flex Fuel, etc).

The biggest problem I could see with R&D is "finding the reliable limitations of the OEM components" (broken con rods/pistons).

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

Not sure why you'd get "rights" to anything, especially with the tuning because you didn't contribute to the development of the software being utilized by the EMS?

Very easy to understand from where I'm standing. I'm paying for the project, and that's the contract I negotiated.

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Very easy to understand from where I'm standing. I'm paying for the project, and that's the contract I negotiated.

If those are your "terms" of the contract, don't expect any worthwhile shops rushing to do business with you. More than likely they'd A) Find someone else who was willing to donate a car & receive a special rate on all the work involved or B Buy their own donor car, which wouldn't be too difficult since early E92 M3s are starting to go for sub-$35k

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

If those are your "terms" of the contract, don't expect any worthwhile shops rushing to do business with you. More than likely they'd A) Find someone else who was willing to donate a car & receive a special rate on all the work involved or B Buy their own donor car, which wouldn't be too difficult since early E92 M3s are starting to go for sub-$35k

I think I can safely say none of these things are applicable or concern me. I'm not a business nor am I offering to sell anything.

[Sales@Gintani.com]

Hey guys, we understand that everybody is more than frustrated with the delayed progress and updates on this thread. It was our fault for releasing the information way too early without considering running into a few bumps along the way. We would like all of you to understand, this project had started out for us to have some fun with our own personal car. When we decided to make this into a production kit, there were a lot of changes that needed to be made for everything to fit like oem and for everything to be safe. The space we are working with is more than tight. This is not one of those turbo kits that you can build using just aluminum piping and U bends.

As of now, we have made a lot of changes even to our turbo manifolds and extreme changes to the piping. We are doing our best to finish the production pieces which will include a lot of cast pieces.

The car has been taken apart again for a few more changes. We will be testing fitment of newly designed pieces. We will be putting the vehicle back together with the fabricated pieces and old design turbo manifolds and will continue further testing with these components until the final production pieces are completed.

We understand an update has been long overdue, so here are a few videos of the kit. Enjoy.

[JEllis]

Sounds sick!

[smellfish]

Update! w00t! Make sure you keep those waste gate side dumps in the production model

[Sales@Gintani.com]

Originally Posted by smellfish

Update! w00t! Make sure you keep those waste gate side dumps in the production model

They might change a little, but they will be there

[schnell325]

What a beastly sounding machine!

[MPowerZ32]

Nice! Can't wait to see more updates!

[Mit_Boost]

It appears that you're reusing the supercharger manifold... Mind commenting if you're going with an Air/Water or Air/Air Intercooling setup?

[lsmkr01]

That sounds so intense, I LOVE it!

[whats77inaname]

FINALLY, THANK YOU.

[Longboarder]

Holy crap!!

[phrozen06]

I'm glad I waited and ignored all the negative posts in this thread.

[whats77inaname]

Seeing this come to fruition further reinforces my decision to stick w/the E90 platform instead of moving to the F-series. I'd rather wait and spend $15k-$20k on a built internaled TT S65 than 3X+ that amount on stock internaled TT6 that I would have to mod.

[e92livin]

I can't wait for this.. Imagine how it will sound when it spools up!!

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by whats77inaname

Seeing this come to fruition further reinforces my decision to stick w/the E90 platform instead of moving to the F-series. I'd rather wait and spend $15k-$20k on a built internaled TT S65 than 3X+ that amount on stock internaled TT6 that I would have to mod.

I'd be surprised if the cost of a twin turbo S65 with forged internals wast'nt more in the $30-35k range and personnaly I see no evidence here that the project of making this kit into production won't be avorted, even though I would love to see some TT V8 M3s ripping the airstrips!!