BMW considering cutting the cylinder count on M-models (and using FI) ?

[ruff]

Originally Posted by RandyB

I would like to see DFI added to the next M3 4.0 V8, hopefully bringing the hp up to 440-450hp. Then, using more lightweight materials, get the weight as close to 3200-3300 lbs as possible without the size of the car growing again.

I am with you but I do not believe DFI will add quite that much horsepower, maybe a 20 hp jump would be a more realistic gain. Imagine the performance of the car you described with 3 to 4 miles per gallon improvement in fuel economy, due to DFI and weight reduction. My biggest disappointment about the M3 is lack of DFI which means less power and worse fuel economy. My biggest hope for the future M is exactly as you described, DFI and weight reduction.

[ersin]

Originally Posted by ruff

I am with you but I do not believe DFI will add quite that much horsepower, maybe a 20 hp jump would be a more realistic gain. Imagine the performance of the car you described with 3 to 4 miles per gallon improvement in fuel economy, due to DFI and weight reduction. My biggest disappointment about the M3 is lack of DFI which means less power and worse fuel economy. My biggest hope for the future M is exactly as you described, DFI and weight reduction.

Does any manufacturer offer DFI yet? I know Porsche is close.

Anyway, this underscores my point from earlier. Technology marches on. We will have high horsepower, good fuel efficiency, and be environmentally friendly all at the same time. Just wait for technology to catch up.

[ase2dais]

Originally Posted by mapezzul

Which is not a spooling delay, it is an electronics delay, everything goes through wires and computers nothing is direct anymore. If they would use dual core processors at current speeds to run the algorithms there would be no perceivable delay but that would be expensive. The turbos are near fully spooled at idle b/c of the small size, low inertia and specialized materials so there is no lag or delay. Just about every car now has some delay, even the naturally aspirated ones, driven any of the NA V8s lately?

Fortunately for me I've test driven the new M3 at full road power, and I am quite happy with its no lag compared to the tt conterpart. (or whatever that annoying delay is )

( nice to see you online btw, its been 2 years so are you ready for a tradeup )

[ruff]

Originally Posted by ersin

Does any manufacturer offer DFI yet? I know Porsche is close.

The 997 is rumored to be getting DFI and their own version of DCT this summer. The bloated Cayenne made a nice gain in power and mileage with their V8, which will also be implemented in the upcoming Panamera sedan. Audi uses a first generation DFI for the RS4 and R8 with it's high revving 4.2 litre, but frankly it doesn't offer anything in regards to mileage gains over the M3. The Lexus IS F has DFI with both power and mileage gains. I believe it's mileage is 16/23 which is class leading and a good number considering it's power output and weight. BMW's own 335 has DFI with both power and mileage benefits but the engine rev limit is 7k.

[EHDEN]

I love to see the extra horses! but this will make it intersting. Curious to see the results in the future.

[mapezzul]

Originally Posted by ase2dais

Fortunately for me I've test driven the new M3 at full road power, and I am quite happy with its no lag compared to the tt conterpart. (or whatever that annoying delay is )

( nice to see you online btw, its been 2 years so are you ready for a tradeup )

I have already traded up to a 530XIT.... I had just been away from this site for a while working on other projects and such. You can check it out....
www.bimmerfile.com

It is good to be back with some extra time here and there. Some good contributions these days.

Best of luck!

[e36jakeo]

There is a reason the 335's 3.0L twin turbo, direct injection Inline 6 won engine of the year. It is the most flexible powerplant I have ever driven. It will pull smoothly and powerfully from 1400 RPM up a hill in 4th gear (try doing that in an STI or Evo). It has the least turbo lag of any car on the market (almost none). It makes great torque all the way to 5500 RPM, with a slight trail off to 6K then a bigger drop after that. It sounds great, it smooth and quiet when cruising but snarls nicely when pushed.

Most amazing of all is that a tuned version putting out about 400 HP and 430 lb ft of torque at the crank will return 25-30 MPG when driving on the highway. I don't think there is another 400 HP car that can even come close. THIS is why BMW will be investigating DI turbo engines for their next M cars. Power, flexibility, efficiency, tunablility, packaging, size, weight.

Mark my words: In the next five years, powerplants in most premium autos will be moving to either DI turbo engines or clean deisel technology. NA will be dying quickly, and the N54 is the template others will use.

[DirtBag335]

I don't know if this was mentioned yet but they could make a high reving turbo charged engine. The STI in Japan revs out to 8K. I'm sure the M devision would do the same thing.

[KonigsTiger]

This is only true if the turbos are low psi!!!! The issue here is the compression ratio and the relatively low octane rating of street gas!

[Cingulus]

I would love to see BMW go with FI, they would spend the time to do it better than anyone. If you look at the 3.8 TT GTR engine and 911 Turbo, we know smaller engines and FI can be very, very, good. I can I have been running a TT 350Z for the past 5 years. I have to say that FI provides some amazing flexibility for performance mods.

[asaulo1]

either way, FI or NA, as long as it's on par with what the other performance branch of other auto maker's, //M is still a brand to beat.... I am just glad that I got mine (well, not here yet but hopefully in a couple of weeks) V8 baby..... a screamer at that as well

[enigma]

Originally Posted by mantis

coz what's going on right now is ridiculous. huge engines, a lot of cyl's, a hyundai has over 300 hp! that's like ferrari 10 years ago man.

IMHO all car manufacturers should put more effort in finding alternative energy, weight reduction solutions for cheap, improve efficiency.

My 190hp 4cyl car always puts up better lap times than my 333hp 6cly car.

I wish BMW would stop worrying about power and start fixing their suspensions.

[footie]

Originally Posted by enigma

My 190hp 4cyl car always puts up better lap times than my 333hp 6cly car.

I wish BMW would stop worrying about power and start fixing their suspensions.

In fairness enigma, your 190hp 4cyl only weighs 2/3rds of the weight of the M3 which will have a bearing on any outcome.

With the best will in the world we will never see or want our M3 to end up like an Elise, those cars are the most basic form of transport next up from a soap-box.

[enigma]

Originally Posted by footie

In fairness enigma, your 190hp 4cyl only weighs 2/3rds of the weight of the M3 which will have a bearing on any outcome.

The M3 still has better power to weight in track config. Its clearly not power or acceleration thats the problem.

I'll report back once I finally get to drive my new car in anger. I just wish they would hurry up getting it here.

Also Ferrari's, Z06, the GTR are all heavier cars and yet seem to handle just just fine. Oh, yea, they don't use mcmuffin struts...

[footie]

Originally Posted by enigma

The M3 still has better power to weight in track config. Its clearly not power or acceleration thats the problem.

I'll report back once I finally get to drive my new car in anger. I just wish they would hurry up getting it here.

Also Ferrari's, Z06, the GTR are all heavier cars and yet seem to handle just just fine. Oh, yea, they don't use mcmuffin struts...

Nope, but does the Z06 not use old leaf springs in the rear?

I too am not a fan of struts but as a cost exercise against ability they do come out on top. Also you can't exactly say that the CSL performed badly on them.

Power only helps with acceleration, it can do nothing about braking or directional changes, that is where weight really can tell and is probably the reason why the wee Lotus is doing so well.

[enigma]

Originally Posted by footie

Nope, but does the Z06 not use old leaf springs in the rear?

I too am not a fan of struts but as a cost exercise against ability they do come out on top. Also you can't exactly say that the CSL performed badly on them.

Power only helps with acceleration, it can do nothing about braking or directional changes, that is where weight really can tell and is probably the reason why the wee Lotus is doing so well.

Yes the Z06 uses leaf springs. Not sure why this is important since they work quite well in practice.

I don't buy the "cost" argument for struts. If they are cheap enough for the rx-8 and s2000, BMW can sure afford to use them

Braking and constant cornerning are dependant on the cars weight to effective contact patch on the ground.

The BMW has 2x 235mm+265mm or ~1000mm of tire width holding up the car. Now contact patch is more complicated than that since the loading of the tire and tire pressure has a lot to do with it. But wider tires are usually better given the same weight

BMW ~3700lbs / 1000mm = 3.7 lbs per mm
Elise ~2100lbs / 840mm = 2.5 lbs per mm
Z06 ~3130lbs / 1200mm = 2.6 lbs per mm

It gets worse when you factor in the BMW cannot even use all of the 235 front tire and that cornerning is limited by the end that slips first.

Once the new wheels are here I will be at
285s ~3700 / 1140mm = 3.2 lbs per mm

Better but still not in the same league. The high tire loading is also a big reason the BMWs chew up tires when driven hard compared to other cars.