Guesses on Nurburgring Nordschleife times?

replicat · 10-29-2006, 05:40 PM

So are you saying that the 330zhp's handling is on par with the e46 m3? If so, then I your sadly mistaking. Ive driven both cars, and if were talking stock for stock (tires, suspenision, etc..), they are day and night. The M3 generates far more grip and is alot easier to point in and turn than the 330zhp.

SpencerM3 · 10-29-2006, 06:27 PM

RS4-ESQUE

replicat · 10-29-2006, 06:38 PM

Wait, what will be rs4esque? The M3s times?

JK42 · 10-29-2006, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by enigma

Prior to the C5 model I would agree. However, starting with the C5 Z06 that completly changed. The newer C5 and C6 models handle as well as anything made in Germany today. Don't believe me, go drive one.

Never did bash the new Vettes, and even the old ones I have always considered the quiessential American sportscar (or the only real American sportscar, perhaps along with the Dodge Viper) - the only thing that's lacking is the interior, which is still quite a disaster for a car in it's price class. I've had a chance to drive them quite a few times, even in their native land, as my friend in Northern Virginia owns one. And on the track here in Finland too. One of the first real sporscars besides kompressor-charged E30 M3's I ever drove on any track was an early 80's Vette, as a matter of fact.

Best regards,

Jussi

replicat · 10-29-2006, 08:02 PM

How were the track manners compared to the m3?

enigma · 10-29-2006, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by replicat

So are you saying that the 330zhp's handling is on par with the e46 m3? If so, then I your sadly mistaking. Ive driven both cars, and if were talking stock for stock (tires, suspenision, etc..), they are day and night.

I was talking on similar tires. The stock tires on the 330 zhp are inferrior to those on the M3.

FWIW: I have had a chance to drive a lot of diffrent cars at either the track or in autocross competition. I would rate them sort of like this from best to worst.

#1: Lotus elise (With aftermarket track suspension, wheels, tires)
#2: Evo VIII (in SCCA BSP prep)
#3: E46 M3 (in SCCA SM prep)
#4: Elise
#5: Stock C5 Z06 (on race tires)
#6: S2000
#7: E46 M3 (newer models)
#8: E36 328is (soft but reasonably neutral)
#9: Mini S
#10: Miata (on Hoosiers, twitchy)
#11: Evo VIII (turbo lag sucks)
#12: E46 M3 (older version, understeer city)
#13: WRX (understeer and lag)
#14: Mazda 6 (She is listing to port captain)
#15: Volvo S70, ugh

replicat · 10-30-2006, 12:56 AM

Cool, but tires aside, the suspension of the M is still in a different league.

Smoltz · 10-30-2006, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by replicat

Cool, but tires aside, the suspension of the M is still in a different league.

Regarding the stock suspension, that's true. However, the 330i ZHPs lighter weight does wonders for its handling. Unfortunatley, the ZHP doesn't have the seam welded body that the M3 does :-(

-Adam

replicat · 10-30-2006, 04:00 PM

enigma · 10-30-2006, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smoltz

Regarding the stock suspension, that's true. However, the 330i ZHPs lighter weight does wonders for its handling. Unfortunatley, the ZHP doesn't have the seam welded body that the M3 does :-(

-Adam

Yep, reduced weight is the single most important thing you can do to improve a cars handling. Also the ZHP has more front tire per LB than the M3.

JK42 · 10-30-2006, 05:32 PM

Specifically, reducing the unsprung mass is the most single important thing. Too bad BMW has made the huge mistake of forcing RFTs on all regular models and spoiled the handling of very many potentially excellent cars by doing so

I mean, the added weight of the RFT tyres is really about the same as the added weight of a spare tire. This is one technological "first" that I think BMW made a mistake about with. Of course RFTs have developed very fast now because BMWs require them, but it's still going to take another 5-10 years for them to be even close to the best non RFT tyres... But if BMW didn't force RFTs, then the development maybe would never have happened at all, so it's kind of a two-edged sword...

Best regards,

Jussi

replicat · 10-30-2006, 06:38 PM

Good point. I think that maybe BMW forces the RTF's on cars that will be targeted at a certain market. That market being one which wouldn't necessarily notice the difference in handling so much, as compared to peice of mind/saftey that would be offered.
It is a double edged sword because granted, alot of buyers are enthusiasts, but those buyers are outnumbered by hundreds of thousands that aren't.

JK42 · 10-30-2006, 09:19 PM

Yeah,

I guess BMW is counting on enthustiasts to buy the M models anyway and so let the regular salesmen BMW yuppies get RFTs since they don't understand anything about the car except that it's a BMW...?

But they don't understand that there are countries such as Finland where car taxes are 100%. A 30.000 euro BMW 130i in Germany costs 60.000 euros here. And there's no way around it. The old M3 cost about 55.000e in Germany, and 100.000e here, that's way over $110.000 USD. So most enthustiasts over here are forced to do without the nice M models they would like, thanks to our *ucking social democrat communist government.

Best regards,

Jussi

replicat · 10-30-2006, 10:09 PM

Wait, are you joking me. Are we talking dollar for dollar, the car costs that much in the US. $110,000? Christ why is it so terrible? What is the reason for those taxes?

100% thats rediculous. In california its 0.08% per dollar and thats considered high. Im confused is tax 100% per euro in Finland? Like if milk cost 3 euros, then you'll pay 6 euros?

JK42 · 10-30-2006, 10:54 PM

That's just the car taxes. Purchase tax of any goods or services is 22%. That's added on top of the 100% car tax!!

The reasons are countless... The social security system, fat government, social democracy, laziness, stupidity, jealousness and endless amounts of politics. The car tax came into effect in 1952 as a "temporary tax" and has remained ever since. Now that Finland is part of the EU, EU courts are punishing the government hard for this idiot tax because it breaks EU rules. Hopefully EU will eventually kill these insane vehicle taxes. I believe Denmark has even higher car taxes than 100%.

Best regards,

Jussi

replicat · 10-30-2006, 11:33 PM

Holy crap, the people of the US would die if those percentage rates we're to over occur here. We bitch about the small tax hikes on anything.

A Prayer to the car gods to lift those insane car taxes in Finland.

Jason · 10-31-2006, 12:57 PM

We're wayyy

now.

Please feel free to start a new topic so that threads can stay on-topic. Thanks!

replicat · 10-31-2006, 08:56 PM

Hahah, Nurburgring/Tax rates should be the new title! Jk. Sorry about that.

10-29-2006, 05:40 PM	#23
replicat Lieutenant 23 Rep 515 Posts Drives: 40MPG Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Southern California iTrader: (0)	So are you saying that the 330zhp's handling is on par with the e46 m3? If so, then I your sadly mistaking. Ive driven both cars, and if were talking stock for stock (tires, suspenision, etc..), they are day and night. The M3 generates far more grip and is alot easier to point in and turn than the 330zhp.
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10-29-2006, 06:27 PM	#24
SpencerM3 Sauce 75 Rep 2,023 Posts Drives: 2009 SSII E90 M3 Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Los Angeles iTrader: (1)	RS4-ESQUE __________________ 2009 E90 M3 \| Silverstone II \| Black Novillo \| HRE P40's \| Akrapovic Exhaust \| Eibach Pro Kit \| Jet Black Kidney Grilles \| SSII Side Reflectors \| SSII Side Gills \| LUX H8 Angel Eyes \| Macht Schnell Filter \| Tecnocraft Envy Charge Pipe "M3 drivers have no friends." - Jeremy Clarkson
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10-29-2006, 06:38 PM	#25
replicat Lieutenant 23 Rep 515 Posts Drives: 40MPG Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Southern California iTrader: (0)	Wait, what will be rs4esque? The M3s times?
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10-29-2006, 08:02 PM	#27
replicat Lieutenant 23 Rep 515 Posts Drives: 40MPG Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Southern California iTrader: (0)	How were the track manners compared to the m3?
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10-30-2006, 12:56 AM	#29
replicat Lieutenant 23 Rep 515 Posts Drives: 40MPG Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Southern California iTrader: (0)	Cool, but tires aside, the suspension of the M is still in a different league.
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10-30-2006, 04:00 PM	#31
replicat Lieutenant 23 Rep 515 Posts Drives: 40MPG Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Southern California iTrader: (0)
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10-30-2006, 05:32 PM	#33
JK42 First Lieutenant 19 Rep 374 Posts Drives: E70 BMW X5 4.8i Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northern Europe iTrader: (0)	Specifically, reducing the unsprung mass is the most single important thing. Too bad BMW has made the huge mistake of forcing RFTs on all regular models and spoiled the handling of very many potentially excellent cars by doing so I mean, the added weight of the RFT tyres is really about the same as the added weight of a spare tire. This is one technological "first" that I think BMW made a mistake about with. Of course RFTs have developed very fast now because BMWs require them, but it's still going to take another 5-10 years for them to be even close to the best non RFT tyres... But if BMW didn't force RFTs, then the development maybe would never have happened at all, so it's kind of a two-edged sword... Best regards, Jussi
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10-30-2006, 06:38 PM	#34
replicat Lieutenant 23 Rep 515 Posts Drives: 40MPG Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Southern California iTrader: (0)	Good point. I think that maybe BMW forces the RTF's on cars that will be targeted at a certain market. That market being one which wouldn't necessarily notice the difference in handling so much, as compared to peice of mind/saftey that would be offered. It is a double edged sword because granted, alot of buyers are enthusiasts, but those buyers are outnumbered by hundreds of thousands that aren't.
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10-30-2006, 09:19 PM	#35
JK42 First Lieutenant 19 Rep 374 Posts Drives: E70 BMW X5 4.8i Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northern Europe iTrader: (0)	Yeah, I guess BMW is counting on enthustiasts to buy the M models anyway and so let the regular salesmen BMW yuppies get RFTs since they don't understand anything about the car except that it's a BMW...? But they don't understand that there are countries such as Finland where car taxes are 100%. A 30.000 euro BMW 130i in Germany costs 60.000 euros here. And there's no way around it. The old M3 cost about 55.000e in Germany, and 100.000e here, that's way over $110.000 USD. So most enthustiasts over here are forced to do without the nice M models they would like, thanks to our *ucking social democrat communist government. Best regards, Jussi
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10-30-2006, 10:09 PM	#36
replicat Lieutenant 23 Rep 515 Posts Drives: 40MPG Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Southern California iTrader: (0)	Wait, are you joking me. Are we talking dollar for dollar, the car costs that much in the US. $110,000? Christ why is it so terrible? What is the reason for those taxes? 100% thats rediculous. In california its 0.08% per dollar and thats considered high. Im confused is tax 100% per euro in Finland? Like if milk cost 3 euros, then you'll pay 6 euros?
	Appreciate 0 Quote

10-30-2006, 10:54 PM	#37
JK42 First Lieutenant 19 Rep 374 Posts Drives: E70 BMW X5 4.8i Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northern Europe iTrader: (0)	That's just the car taxes. Purchase tax of any goods or services is 22%. That's added on top of the 100% car tax!! The reasons are countless... The social security system, fat government, social democracy, laziness, stupidity, jealousness and endless amounts of politics. The car tax came into effect in 1952 as a "temporary tax" and has remained ever since. Now that Finland is part of the EU, EU courts are punishing the government hard for this idiot tax because it breaks EU rules. Hopefully EU will eventually kill these insane vehicle taxes. I believe Denmark has even higher car taxes than 100%. Best regards, Jussi
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10-30-2006, 11:33 PM	#38
replicat Lieutenant 23 Rep 515 Posts Drives: 40MPG Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Southern California iTrader: (0)	Holy crap, the people of the US would die if those percentage rates we're to over occur here. We bitch about the small tax hikes on anything. A Prayer to the car gods to lift those insane car taxes in Finland.
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10-31-2006, 12:57 PM	#39
Jason Administrator 40809 Rep 21,240 Posts Drives: F80 M3 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA iTrader: (0)	We're wayyy now. Please feel free to start a new topic so that threads can stay on-topic. Thanks!
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10-31-2006, 08:56 PM	#40
replicat Lieutenant 23 Rep 515 Posts Drives: 40MPG Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Southern California iTrader: (0)	Hahah, Nurburgring/Tax rates should be the new title! Jk. Sorry about that.
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