Is the M3 20k better than a 335?

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by mikeo

The OP's original question could also be changed to "Is the M3 $30K better than the 135?"

How 'bout 135i vs. 335i? Or 335i vs. 535i? Or 135i vs. 535i?

Or any car vs. other car for that matter, BMW or otherwise.

The 335i and M3 are 100% functionally equivalent from a utility point of view. That's why the question is so relevant. Any other comparisons require analysis of passenger space, luggage space, crash worthiness, etc. In my case I absolutely need the space, so the 1 series has long been ruled out.

[mikeo]

Originally Posted by southlight

Let's try the math again:
135i is 1560kg [EU standard]
M3 is 1655kg [EU standard]
That makes a difference of 95kg = 209lbs

A look at the power to weight ratio:
135 has 11.24 lbs per hp, M3 8.69 lbs per hp.

Are you still wanting anybody to do the math?

Best regards, south

Thanks for the math education, south. 209lbs is still a significant difference. I should have expanded my comparison to state that with the Procede and Quaife mods the performance difference between the two cars should be minimal, with about $25K still in the bank. There is no comparison with the cache of the M3 of course. Or the enigine sound!

[Voltigeur]

@mikeo - been my thinking also,

take a PROcede +2 PSI taking hp to 380-400? Say it's 390, now we're talking nearly similar output for an extra $3k. Of course, the M has the rest (carbon roof, suspension, wheels etc) - add in a LSD to the 335i and, for those on a more limited budget, you've got very quick 3er + LSD = major fun stuff.

[mikeo]

Originally Posted by Voltigeur

@mikeo - been my thinking also,

take a PROcede +2 PSI taking hp to 380-400? Say it's 390, now we're talking nearly similar output for an extra $3k. Of course, the M has the rest (carbon roof, suspension, wheels etc) - add in a LSD to the 335i and, for those on a more limited budget, you've got very quick 3er + LSD = major fun stuff.

Yes, it works nicely for the 335 as well, but I'm thinking the 135 has the 209 lb advantage plus a shorter wheelbase for quicker handling. Remains to be seen though.

[Keto]

Can we all stop pretending that initial purchase price of car+mods is the only thing that matters? That's only the case if you keep it until it drops. Total cost of ownership people.

EDIT: Admittedly, the 135 + mods sounds like a great deal, if you like to mod. Certainly better than the 335.

[swamp2]

I certainly agree that a 135i+boost+dif will be a great car. Just not nearly light enough - about the difference of a single (American) passenger. If we want to keep discussing modded vs. stock another great place to start is an over boosted Lancer Evo:

-$29k base (avoid top end model - probably a few $k less than the 135i)
-About 200lb lighter than 135i
-Equal to better moding potential

We can also go down the road of used supercharged Mustang with 600+hp as well...

[mikeo]

OK, I'll stop right here. Sorry for taking this OT.

[JEllis]

Originally Posted by Voltigeur

@mikeo - been my thinking also,

take a PROcede +2 PSI taking hp to 380-400? Say it's 390, now we're talking nearly similar output for an extra $3k. Of course, the M has the rest (carbon roof, suspension, wheels etc) - add in a LSD to the 335i and, for those on a more limited budget, you've got very quick 3er + LSD = major fun stuff.

I dont think anyone here is denying that the 335i can be a very fast car and handle great. At 9/10 the different between a slightly modded 335i and an M3 handling wise wont be that much different. However, one of the great things about the M3 has always been reliability. The ability to buy a car straight from the factory that can be driven straight to the track and have no problems competing against much more expensive autos reliably lap after lap. The problem with modded vehicles has always been continued reliability. There is already evidence that the 335i, with its turbos, tends to overheat after extended track use. Yes, there are exceptions. Some have performed great. However, the great thing about the M3 is that it has proven again and again that you can rely on it to be reliable both on and off the track. This is what you/me are paying for. A reliable performance car that can get you comfortably to work everyday and at the same time be driven hard lap after lap on your local track days.

Originally Posted by swamp2

I certainly agree that a 135i+boost+dif will be a great car. Just not nearly light enough - about the difference of a single (American) passenger. If we want to keep discussing modded vs. stock another great place to start is an over boosted Lancer Evo:

-$29k base (avoid top end model - probably a few $k less than the 135i)
-About 200lb lighter than 135i
-Equal to better moding potential

We can also go down the road of used supercharged Mustang with 600+hp as well...

Yeah, the 135i should be a great car and force to reckon with. I would probably still go with the 335 for looks alone. The weight savings, as you stated, are not that significant.

Jason

[dagjohnsen]

Originally Posted by JEllis

I dont think anyone here is denying that the 335i can be a very fast car and handle great. At 9/10 the different between a slightly modded 335i and an M3 handling wise wont be that much different. However, one of the great things about the M3 has always been reliability. The ability to buy a car straight from the factory that can be driven straight to the track and have no problems competing against much more expensive autos reliably lap after lap. The problem with modded vehicles has always been continued reliability. There is already evidence that the 335i, with its turbos, tends to overheat after extended track use. Yes, there are exceptions. Some have performed great. However, the great thing about the M3 is that it has proven again and again that you can rely on it to be reliable both on and off the track. This is what you/me are paying for. A reliable performance car that can get you comfortably to work everyday and at the same time be driven hard lap after lap on your local track days.




Yeah, the 135i should be a great car and force to reckon with. I would probably still go with the 335 for looks alone. The weight savings, as you stated, are not that significant.

Jason

Since Im european, I only know how the european tuners work.
They will have to TUV prove the tuning, that is a German standard.
I have talked to several tuners through the years and since I do track driving, overheating is always an issue I bring up.
The answer is always the same, they tell me I can take the car to trackdays without trouble.
Since cars are 3-4 times more expensive in Norway compared to the US due to awful taxes, I am forced to either have a second hand car (had a 911 for 5 years) or a tuned new one. I have never ever had any trouble with chiptuned cars, and the most extreme mod I did was a E39 520iM sedan that was fitted with a ESS powerdyne supercharger, increasing from 150 to 230 horsepower. That is a huge increase and a lot more heat I would guess.
Took it to Germany, hours of hard driving at the autobahn, and then the Nurburgring.
No trouble at all, not even the brakes. That car was great by the way, quite light weight (around 1400 kilos), good chassis and M-suspention, did the Ring with safe margins in weekend traffic 9.15 BTB (not full lap, bridge to bridge, add 24 seconds for Sport Auto 20.6 km comparison)

Does anyone have trouble with overheating on their chiptuned cars?
Would be interesting to know.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by JEllis

Yeah, the 135i should be a great car and force to reckon with. I would probably still go with the 335 for looks alone. The weight savings, as you stated, are not that significant.
Jason

Someone on 1addict released new information from BMWNA. I have posted some of the information on General talk, but the 135i is supposely 200lbs lighter than 335i.
If this information is confirmed on BMWNA webpage within the next couple month then I am sold on the 1 series.

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1630

Rest of the links for your personal enjoyment.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88525

[JEllis]

Originally Posted by dagjohnsen

Since Im european, I only know how the european tuners work.
They will have to TUV prove the tuning, that is a German standard.
I have talked to several tuners through the years and since I do track driving, overheating is always an issue I bring up.
The answer is always the same, they tell me I can take the car to trackdays without trouble.
Since cars are 3-4 times more expensive in Norway compared to the US due to awful taxes, I am forced to either have a second hand car (had a 911 for 5 years) or a tuned new one. I have never ever had any trouble with chiptuned cars, and the most extreme mod I did was a E39 520iM sedan that was fitted with a ESS powerdyne supercharger, increasing from 150 to 230 horsepower. That is a huge increase and a lot more heat I would guess.
Took it to Germany, hours of hard driving at the autobahn, and then the Nurburgring.
No trouble at all, not even the brakes. That car was great by the way, quite light weight (around 1400 kilos), good chassis and M-suspention, did the Ring with safe margins in weekend traffic 9.15 BTB (not full lap, bridge to bridge, add 24 seconds for Sport Auto 20.6 km comparison)

Does anyone have trouble with overheating on their chiptuned cars?
Would be interesting to know.

Go to the E90post.com and General FI section...many stories there regarding heat soak.

Originally Posted by bobbo

Someone on 1addict released new information from BMWNA. I have posted some of the information on General talk, but the 135i is supposely 200lbs lighter than 335i

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1630

Rest of the links for your personal enjoyment.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88525

Yep 200lbs as stated a couple posts above. So a tuned 135i with two people in it is the same at a 335i with one. Thats really not significant in my book. Not a huge difference there in performance.

Jason

[Robert]

Originally Posted by JEllis

Go to the E90post.com and General FI section...many stories there regarding heat soak.





Yep 200lbs as stated a couple posts above. So a tuned 135i with two people in it is the same at a 335i with one. Thats really not significant in my book. Not a huge difference there in performance.

Jason

South did the math between M3 vs. 135i. Not 335i vs. 135i. So the gap between M3 and 135i should be greater. If one did the direct EU conversion between 335i and 135i the difference is less than 100lbs. So we really need to wait for the official US figures for M3 and 135i.

That said if I have 80k to spend on a BMW I will definitely get the M3.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by bobbo

South did the math between M3 vs. 135i. Not 335i vs. 135i. So the gap between M3 and 135i should be greater. If one did the direct EU conversion between 335i and 135i the difference is less than 100lbs. So we really need to wait for the official US figures for M3 and 135i.

That said if I have 80k to spend on a BMW I will definitely get the M3.

135i is 1560 kg in Europe, 335i weighs 1600kg, so the difference is 40kg = 88lbs, just as you said.
That's following EU standard. I'd really be surprised if there's a bigger weight difference for the U.S. cars.

Best regards, south

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by southlight

135i is 1560 kg in Europe, 335i weighs 1600kg, so the difference is 40kg = 88lbs, just as you said.
That's following EU standard. I'd really be surprised if there's a bigger weight difference for the U.S. cars.

Best regards, south

Yep. 1600kg = 3520lbs and BMW USA lists our 335i at 3571lbs. The small difference could easily be due to variations in standard equipment. Certainly our 1 series will not vary from the 1560kg weight of the European model by more than a similar amount.

[JEllis]

88lbs... in that case the 135i is just a cheap and smaller 3ser that isnt as pretty...

Jason

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Yep. 1600kg = 3520lbs and BMW USA lists our 335i at 3571lbs. The small difference could easily be due to variations in standard equipment. Certainly our 1 series will not vary from the 1560kg weight of the European model by more than a similar amount.

Not to continue the OT posts but, well, I think I may be eating my words...

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1685

Note if you read through the thread, it seems most likely that the weight is 3,372 for the 135i 6MT, not 3332 as suggested in the first post (the actual weight figure was botched in the brochure, so its not known for certain, but the other weights given can presumed to be official). That still puts the car 200lbs less than the 335i. Edit: I should add, this all assumes the brochure is somewhat official and not a complete hoax.

Question is, why are European weights of the two so much closer than US weights?

[coaster]

Originally Posted by swamp2

avoid top end model - probably a few $k less than the 135i

Swamp swamp swamp ... you always get it wrong man. Why avoid the top end model??? Exactly the opposite. The only Evo X model worth considering is the MR (top of the line). Load up the MR with leather seats etc. and of course you will get the superb dual clutch techno-tranny to make it more of a performance car. You already have that super all wheel handling package as standard. Add boost from our friends at Vishnu. (... and don't forget to remove tha silly wing from the top of the trunk.) And whoa ... you got a toy that will make the 135 look bad on the street. In direct comparison I expect the 135 to have inferior tranny and inferior handling while costing more. However, it will probably still look better than the MR, at least it's interior.

The supercharged Mustang you love to quote is not in this league in terms of handling. That's just pure BS. By the way, when the Evo X MR comes out, go test drive one just for the heck of it. I sure plan to. I still can't believe the Japanese guys who usually excel at making nice TV sets (I own a large Mitsubishi TV) beat the mighty BMW in bringing out the DCT first.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by coaster

Swamp swamp swamp ... you always get it wrong man. Why avoid the top end model??? Exactly the opposite. The only Evo X model worth considering is the MR (top of the line). Load up the MR with leather seats etc. and of course you will get the superb dual clutch techno-tranny to make it more of a performance car. You already have that super all wheel handling package as standard. Add boost from our friends at Vishnu. (... and don't forget to remove tha silly wing from the top of the trunk.) And whoa ... you got a toy that will make the 135 look bad on the street. In direct comparison I expect the 135 to have inferior tranny and inferior handling while costing more. However, it will probably still look better than the MR, at least it's interior.

The supercharged Mustang you love to quote is not in this league in terms of handling. That's just pure BS. By the way, when the Evo X MR comes out, go test drive one just for the heck of it. I sure plan to. I still can't believe the Japanese guys who usually excel at making nice TV sets (I own a large Mitsubishi TV) beat the mighty BMW in bringing out the DCT first.

Yeah you are right the factual basis of my posts and my predictive abilities are definitely my weakest points here on the forum (ugh get real...).

Although a fan of Evos I admittedly do not really in the know a lot about them. I did review the Mitsub web site a bit before finalizing my post on that point and saw very little differences among the models related to engine and drivetrain nor directly tied to performance. Update: Now I see the problem - I was looking at a very old model 2006, ugh. The website was not clear then but is now. Again if I was a big fan it would have been obvious, but oh well. Feel free to point these out - the model level variations for the new model, if they are known at this point.

The multiple Mustang comments I have made are appropriate as they address the obsession with 0-60 and disregard for a well rounded package. Of course I am not saying the 335i is not well rounded it just is not as envelope pushing in all directions as the M3, hence the comment is illustrative and appropriate.

DCT: VW, along with their supplier Borg Warner beat Mitsu. and BMW in getting a dual clutch system in consumers hands!

[coaster]

Originally Posted by swamp2

DCT: VW, along with their supplier Borg Warner beat Mitsu. and BMW in getting a dual clutch system in consumers hands!

Yes you are right about VW, I stand corrected. They sure beat everybody in getting out the DCT. But I still don't get how Mitsu got ahead of BMW on this one.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by coaster

Yes you are right about VW, I stand corrected. They sure beat everybody in getting out the DCT. But I still don't get how Mitsu got ahead of BMW on this one.

BMW had an investment in SMG to protect (SMG II -> SMG III), while Mitsu did not.

That's rationale, not an excuse.

[Keto]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

That's rationale, not an excuse.

HEADS WILL ROLL AT HEADQUARTERZ

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Keto

HEADS WILL ROLL AT HEADQUARTERZ

LOL

Really though - I don't think BMW is concerned about WM and Mitsu. After all, they will beat Porsche, Mercedes, Lexus, and Infiniti. And Cadillac and Jaguar. And Volvo and Saab

Even Audi does not use DSG in their longitudinal-engined platforms.