Shifting from 4th to 5th in MT

[jms_w]

So, being fairly new to a manual, I'm having a hard time shifting from 4th to 5th without the rear bucking. Trying to conserve fuel, I'm shifting between 2600 and 2900. I'm fine for the lower gears as I'm holding the clutch pedal in for just a moment after shifting before pulling up on the clutch pedal, but for the shift from 4th to 5th, I feel like I have to keep the clutch pedal in for a couple of moments longer or else I get the buck and even then it's hit or miss. The RPM's drop so fast when the clutch pedal is down that I can't shift fast enough. Am I supposed to be on the gas a little before letting the clutch out or should I not push the clutch pedal all the way down? How do you guys/gals shift? Am I shifting way too early for 5th?

[srobmw]

IMHO you're shifting at too low an RPM. Try it at 4000+ RPMs. I think you'll find it much smoother.

[330CIZHP]

That is result of the low-mass inertia of the flywheel. The car has a very light flywheel in order to allow fastest access to redline. Since the purpose of the flywheel is to store energy so that the car can easily get off the line, lighter flywheel trades the smoothness and ease of getting off the line without much throttle input for exceptional response and ability to rev.

Personally, that is the beauty and fun of driving a manual transmission. The quirkiness. It is an art form that requires mastering differently for different cars. Give it time and you will see it will become second nature to you as you will develop a way yourself to shift smoothly.

The daily driving gets a little tricky with a very light flywheel. A way to handle this (takes some practice) is to quickly blip the gas a bit before releasing the clutch. It is a delicate balance that takes some practice.

[ersin]

Originally Posted by jms_w

Trying to conserve fuel, I'm shifting between 2600 and 2900.

Shift 3000+ rpm.

Originally Posted by jms_w

...Am I supposed to be on the gas a little before letting the clutch out ...

Yes. Takes practice but try to match revs, it'll be a little lower than when in 4th.

Originally Posted by jms_w

... or should I not push the clutch pedal all the way down?

Push it all the way down.

Originally Posted by jms_w

How do you guys/gals shift? Am I shifting way too early for 5th?

Shift at a higher rpm. It's a little trickier but you'll get the hang of it the more you do it. Up or downshifting, try to make it smooth by matching revs. Again, it takes practice. But when you do it perfect it's as good as sex.


Cheers.

[smmmurf]

You should shift at a higher RPM (~3,500-4,000).

[chris719]

Shifting more quickly can help also, it's a problem into 5th because of the longer throw. Try backhanding the shift knob and it will make it faster.

[jms_w]

Thank You all for your advice. It sounds weird to rev match on upshifts as I've only heard it done on downshifts but I'll give that a shot. But question about rev matching, I know it's down while clutch pedal is down but do I blip the throttle while in 4th gear, neutral, or 5th gear before I let the clutch out? I can never figure this out.

[LateBraking]

Try watching these, he's pretty good at teaching, I thought.

If you're bucking going 4th-->5th, then chances are you're most likely shifting too early. Like most people have said in this thread, try shifting at higher RPM's, like 3,500+. Rather than getting used to rev matching during upshifts, you should just get used to doing it correctly. Bad habits are easy to make and hard to break, after all.

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by jms_w

Thank You all for your advice. It sounds weird to rev match on upshifts as I've only heard it done on downshifts but I'll give that a shot. But question about rev matching, I know it's down while clutch pedal is down but do I blip the throttle while in 4th gear, neutral, or 5th gear before I let the clutch out? I can never figure this out.

Shifting at higher revs does help, but it's not required. In city driving especially it's perfectly okay, and at times more reasonable for conditions to shift at lower RPMs. Mind you, shifting at higher revs is probably the most practical answer. But IMO one should be able to shift smoothly in various modes/conditions across the rev band.

Here's "my" method--the thing is to try several things and find what works best for you and your style.

Just keep your foot a bit on the throttle and don't lift all the way off. Keep some pressure on it, and if done correctly the revs will be at just the right level (just above where they'll end up when you let off into the next gear). It's not so much a "blip" (but okay to think of it as such as if it helps) as much as "don't let the rev fall to fast" exercise. You're just trying to keep the revs from falling too fast too far (e.g., let them drop from 3K to 2K, not to 1.5K). Even shifting at higher RPMs without doing this in some cars will result in a lack of a smooth shift (the Z4M being one of those, especially 1st to 2nd).

Think of the having an egg between your foot and the throttle--you don't want to let the egg roll off onto the floor. (Have to give credit to my wife on that one--she's the master of all things shifting on the Z4M, which makes shifting the M3 seem like a breeze in comparison....)

The "blip" is more of a downshift thing, there you need to actually get the revs up past where they were (e.g. 3K to 4K).

Originally Posted by chris719

Shifting more quickly can help also, it's a problem into 5th because of the longer throw. Try backhanding the shift knob and it will make it faster.

This is one way to do it; same end effect as the method I noted.

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

Personally, that is the beauty and fun of driving a manual transmission. The quirkiness. It is an art form that requires mastering differently for different cars. Give it time and you will see it will become second nature to you as you will develop a way yourself to shift smoothly.

Yep, one thing that makes driving more fun! I like my DCT, but miss my 6MT. Every now and then I get to borrow the ///M (which is very hard to master) and find that thrill again!

Originally Posted by iBeJayKaying

Try watching these, he's pretty good at teaching, I thought.

Bad habits are easy to make and hard to break, after all.

You've got a heck of a good point there! It's taken me a long time to stop fully "lifting" off the throttle on upshifts. Bad habits die hard.

[330CIZHP]

It is only to bounce the revs back up a bit so that the flywheel can spin a little faster in order to make it smoother.

Anyway, people have been recommending shifting at higher rpms, which is probably a better solution.

Originally Posted by jms_w

Thank You all for your advice. It sounds weird to rev match on upshifts as I've only heard it done on downshifts but I'll give that a shot. But question about rev matching, I know it's down while clutch pedal is down but do I blip the throttle while in 4th gear, neutral, or 5th gear before I let the clutch out? I can never figure this out.

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

It is only to bounce the revs back up a bit so that the flywheel can spin a little faster in order to make it smoother.

Anyway, people have been recommending shifting at higher rpms, which is probably a better solution.

Agreed, easiest and fastest way to cure.

[330CIZHP]

Originally Posted by Finnegan

Agreed, easiest and fastest way to cure.

Yes, that is a very effective trick. Do not lift foot toe entirely off the gas pedal while shifting. Stop when there is 10 - 15% travel left using light toe weight that will complete the throttle from being fully closed, which means the flywheel will lose speed slower.

[JCtx]

Finnegan made a good point. You should be able to shift smoothly regardless of rpm. But yes, 4-5 is probably the trickiest shift on the M3; I still can't get it smoothly half the times.
And yes, I need to practice the 'rev hanging' technique for smoother (and leisure) upshifts too. I have no problem when shifting quick enough for the engine to be at the rpm of the next shift, but with the S65 dropping rpm like a rock, you need to shift quickly indeed. And sometimes you just want to take your time . And that's where that 'rev hang' technique comes handy. I'll try it too. It's funny how I've always hated rev hang on most of my manual cars, but for the first time, wish the M3 had a little bit of that. The good news is we can provide it with practice. Good suggestion gang. Now we have a reason to drive our cars more; I always like to be smoother. Later.

[Krozi]

Just keep driving the car, you'll get a real nice feel for it. There is a pretty good learning curve with this car regarding smooth shifts.

[Eliminator]

Skip 5th and go straight to six. Smooth as a jelly fish.

[flagger]

Originally Posted by Krozi

Just keep driving the car, you'll get a real nice feel for it. There is a pretty good learning curve with this car regarding smooth shifts.

The best advice on the thread. . . .

Its just a matter of getting used to the car. I've shifted anywhere from 2500 to 7500 RPM. It can all be done smoothly with a little practice. Learning to modulate the clutch pedal and throttle effectively just takes practice. One of the reasons I've never been interested in either the SMG in my E46 or the DCT in my E92. I like to be able to finesse the clutch and throttle. As an aside, the throttle by wire also takes a little getting used to over time.

Once you're there, you're going to really enjoy the car.

[double_j]

Agree with everything said here, but you're really not saving much fuel by shifting at 2900 RPM. The problem is that you're basically letting the car fall to idle before engaging the next gear.

I usually shift around 4K for normal driving. That seems to be the 'magic' point for smoothing everything out without having to balance revs on an upshift. MPG is not noticeably different from when I used to shift at lower points.

[rominl]

just like everyone else, shift at higher rpm, you aren't really burning that much more fuel (if at all)

[bikesbikes]

it comes with practice. also shifing 3000+ rpm is a little smoother. the drop in rpm between 4th and 5th that low in the rev range isn't very big so the revs are likely dropping lower then having to catch back up with the gear ratio. (for lack of a better explaination). the difference in rpm between the gears gets larger and larger as you move up the rev range.

also the 4th to 5th throw is longer. i often find that i hit the passengers knee when i shift to 5th if they lean their leg againt the centre console

[bavarian06]

i notice its best to shift the car at 3000rpm as well. its so odd to be shifting a v8 that late, but then again this car revs to 8400.

do other people shorten their clutch travel distance? meaning instead of pushing the clutch all the way down, full travel, just press it down about 30% and shift? i found doing that makes the between shifts smoother (only concern is if it will damage the clutch).

i found my 1st gear to jerk the car back and forth when the transmission is just warming up or maybe its the drive-by-wire system? anyone else experience this?

[Scoobe]

I havent driven a M3 MT, but with just about any MT for smooth shifting, if your RPM's are above the sync RPM for the next gear, or below, it will buck. When you shift from 4th to 5th gear, take note where the RPM settles for 5th. If your RPM is consistantly higher, let off the throttle completely before pushing in the clutch to shift gears. This will create decelerating momentum on the flywheel. If the RPM is below the sync RPM when you shift, simply shift a little quicker.

[///V\3Dude]

Car shifts alot smoother at 3k rpms. It always feels notchy when i shift from 2500 rpms.