Advice for new intermediate students

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by Ximian

I am definitely not trying hard enough. Do you have the rear seats down or up?

No rear seats right now, but I also did it with rear seats. You just have to stack the tires wall to wall rather than just side to side on the seats.

[Chris_PDX]

Originally Posted by admranger

Schroth QF Pro is a good choice for an HPDE harness that doesn't require a steel head bashing tube (roll bar) to be in your car at all times.

I'll save you some time...it was me. The old fart. The one that instructed for ~2 decades and raced for one decade. But that's not important, what is important is the risk calculation. What's the most dangerous part of a track weekend? Getting to and from the track with all the civilian drivers.

My comment was on the roll bar (for the most part) so "just yes".

If the car is trailered to the track, never mind and carry on.

Schroth QF Pro harnesses are a fine choice for HPDE. Regular race harnesses only work with fixed back seats and if you put those in you need to put in a roll bar. You need the roll bar to prevent the setback from going backwards (you do have a seat back brace in the car, right?) and to get the belts installed within the allowable angle range of the belts (over the seat and down the shoulders has a specific, allowable angle range).

If you drive your car to the track and commute in it, a roll bar presents a significantly higher risk to your health. You spend more time in the car off track than on track (assuming above conditions) and you're much less safe on the roadways than on the track (accidents per mile), assuming you run w/a decent HPDE group that exerts control over the participants.

My sister got whiplash when we were rear ended at a stop sign at about 10mph. If there'd have been a roll bar in the car it may have been a head injury on top of the whiplash.

I should of been more clear, my comment was geared towards the advanced student who was going 10/10ths. At that point, even if you drive it to the track, you have to weigh the risk of driving a caged car on the street vs. having full safety in the car on the track. Yes, the likely hood of having an accident on the street is far higher, but the likely hood of having an accident at 120mph+ or slamming into a solid wall at 60mph is much higher on the track.

At the end of the day, everyone has to make their own risk assessments. If I'm in a car with an advanced driver who is going balls out because they want in car help to shave off another tenth of a second, I'll do that, but only if they have full safety gear.

And it should be said that nobody should feel compelled to ride in a car that they personally don't feel safe in, regardless of the equipment or "standards" that are in place.

[Chris_PDX]

Originally Posted by Ximian

I can answer that - it's not as fun. Nobody wants to spend money going to HPDEs and come out feeling like they didn't have any fun. With new instructors, they can give a bit too much feedback so every corner and every session, there's something new. At that point, it's not much different than sitting in a classroom for a lecture.

I'm a supporter of giving intermediate students capable of driving safely some solo time so they can practice what they learned without interruption. In my experience, the more seasoned instructors will often sit quietly for most of a lap if you're not doing anything drastically wrong so that's almost the same thing.

It boils down to why you are doing HPDE days:

1. For pure fun, or
2. For fun AND education

I do it for #2. I want to be a better driver, as I have a goal of doing wheel to wheel racing in the next year or two. Even as an instructor, I will always accept a passenger who can potentially offer me advice or a different perspective.

My wife is solidly in #1. She dislikes having an instructor because she feels like she's having a less relaxed, fun time. But she understands she needs one to be a safe, smooth, and aware HPDE driver. She runs solo but sometimes has another instructor ride shotgun for tips and tricks. Not me, as we don't want to get divorced

[admranger]

Originally Posted by Chris_PDX

And it should be said that nobody should feel compelled to ride in a car that they personally don't feel safe in, regardless of the equipment or "standards" that are in place.

Could not have said it better myself.

If I see a car is modded so much that I'm surprised the guy got it to the cold pits without rolling it, and it's anything but an A driver (and I'll still give the A driver a once over), I'm asking things about goals and then dropping the "what's your tire pressure?, what'd you torque your lug bolts to? when'd you last check torque?" Assuming the driver can answer the questions w/o my BS detector going off, I'll then evaluate the warm up lap. As we are just past a worker station, I'll ask if the corner worker had a beard or mustache. Especially love doing that after going by a woman corner worker. Of course, if the safety equipment looks haphazard, all bets are off. I'm not getting de-nutted by a poorly fitted sub strap regardless if Lewis Hamilton is driving (especially not getting in if Verstappen or Grosjean is driving!).

[griz31]

Just commenting as I am in almost the same position as OP and found this thread very useful. Thanks for all the insight from those more experienced!

-Jon

[WarrantyTracker]

I'm still finding that any time I have a good instructor in the car, I learn something really useful. That may be because I have lucked upon good instructors, or it may be because I only have 86 track days in my log book so far.

Also I find I can't drive very well if my brain is baked. So I paddock near the bathroom and make sure I drink enough water that I'm visiting it more than I would really like. And staying out of the sun.

It's always nice to see another person get bitten by the bug.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by WarrantyTracker

So I paddock near the bathroom and make sure I drink enough water that I'm visiting it more than I would really like. And staying out of the sun.

I drive the best when I drink a lot of water (180oz or more on hot days) and skip the greasy track food.

Well said...I didn't paddock near the bathroom last time. I find I don't drive so good when I'm trying to decide whether I can make another lap before I piss myself.

[DreamTime]

Originally Posted by WarrantyTracker

I'm still finding that any time I have a good instructor in the car, I learn something really useful. That may be because I have lucked upon good instructors, or it may be because I only have 86 track days in my log book so far.

Absolutely. I believe that no matter how good I get at anything in life, there will always be someone who can teach me something. It's easy to get stuck in your own singular perspective and that can hinder further growth. I will seek out good instructors for as long as I am doing this.

Originally Posted by WarrantyTracker

It's always nice to see another person get bitten by the bug.

Yeah... I'm pretty much hooked for life. Lol

[DreamTime]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

No rear seats right now, but I also did it with rear seats. You just have to stack the tires wall to wall rather than just side to side on the seats.

Thank you so much for this. I have no idea why I did not think of that myself, but damn... this made ALL the difference. Didn't have to remove rear seat and I successfully packed all my wheels, tools, jack, etc no problem at all. Just awesome

[dparm]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I drive the best when I drink a lot of water (180oz or more on hot days) and skip the greasy track food.

Well said...I didn't paddock near the bathroom last time. I find I don't drive so good when I'm trying to decide whether I can make another lap before I piss myself.

Everyone should practice getting out of their harnesses and the car as quickly as possible in case of a fire.

And in case of potty breaks.

[MSY]

I'm no star but have over 100 track days and with all types of groups. It sounds like you are a data guy but for those others reading who may be like me who is a " feel" guy and who is there primarily for fun but also want to improve, I feel getting to caught up into date acquisition can hinder you if you ate a more "feel" type. Analogy is to look at how many golfers screwed up their swing by over data approach. So just make sure you aren't forcing an overly data driven approach if that's not you unless you are as n aspiring competitive racer

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by MSY

I'm no star but have over 100 track days and with all types of groups. It sounds like you are a data guy but for those others reading who may be like me who is a " feel" guy and who is there primarily for fun but also want to improve, I feel getting to caught up into date acquisition can hinder you if you ate a more "feel" type. Analogy is to look at how many golfers screwed up their swing by over data approach. So just make sure you aren't forcing an overly data driven approach if that's not you unless you are as n aspiring competitive racer

I don't really see how data is gonna screw you up. It's probably less important initially as there is a ton to learn from right seat instruction but once you become solo then data, in my experience, becomes extremely important. I posted my recent first time visit to LRP where, on the second day, I set the track record for NASA TT3 beating the P2 and P3 guys by less than 0.2 seconds. I have no right seat, so my coach and I exclusively used data and video to breakdown my laps and develop a plan for each session. I truly believe that on my own, I could've driven a thousand laps there and not come close to achieving the lap times that I did.

That being said it's all about your objectives. Sometimes it's best to disengage the analytical side and just drive. And remember that this hobby is fun.

[M3MPH1S]

Another E92 checking in to the 4 tire club. I did remove the bottom seat cushions and the plastic cupholder thing to make it easier, but the seat backs are still in place

[Datka]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

I don't really see how data is gonna screw you up. It's probably less important initially as there is a ton to learn from right seat instruction but once you become solo then data, in my experience, becomes extremely important. I posted my recent first time visit to LRP where, on the second day, I set the track record for NASA TT3 beating the P2 and P3 guys by less than 0.2 seconds. I have no right seat, so my coach and I exclusively used data and video to breakdown my laps and develop a plan for each session. I truly believe that on my own, I could've driven a thousand laps there and not come close to achieving the lap times that I did.

That being said it's all about your objectives. Sometimes it's best to disengage the analytical side and just drive. And remember that this hobby is fun.

Completely agree with this.
I think he was talking about beginners and intermediate drivers.
For advanced drivers and those who want to race competitively data analysis is the only way to improve as a driver.
For instance, I seem to improve my lap times after analyzing my track videos almost every time.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

I don't really see how data is gonna screw you up. It's probably less important initially as there is a ton to learn from right seat instruction but once you become solo then data, in my experience, becomes extremely important. I posted my recent first time visit to LRP where, on the second day, I set the track record for NASA TT3 beating the P2 and P3 guys by less than 0.2 seconds. I have no right seat, so my coach and I exclusively used data and video to breakdown my laps and develop a plan for each session. I truly believe that on my own, I could've driven a thousand laps there and not come close to achieving the lap times that I did.

That being said it's all about your objectives. Sometimes it's best to disengage the analytical side and just drive. And remember that this hobby is fun.

100% agreed. What feels faster isn't always faster.

crzydave17 couldn't convinced me that turning in super early into a turn. Tried it, felt weird and slow but the data said otherwise.

[Datka]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

100% agreed. What feels faster isn't always faster.

crzydave17 couldn't convinced me that turning in super early into a turn. Tried it, felt weird and slow but the data said otherwise.

Early turn in is almost always faster but you can run out of the road on the exit, so beginners should be careful...

[dparm]

If you've got a basic proficiency with algebra and physics, then read this book to look at WHY early turn-in is faster (among a thousand other things he covers).

https://www.amazon.com/Fast-Car-Phys.../dp/0801898234

[admranger]

Originally Posted by dparm

Everyone should practice getting out of their harnesses and the car as quickly as possible in case of a fire.

And in case of potty breaks.

Especially if you wear a hans. I hooked that damn thing on the roll cage more times than not getting out of the car (have to slither over the "X" bars on the door side don't forget).

[admranger]

Originally Posted by Datka

Early turn in is almost always faster but you can run out of the road on the exit, so beginners should be careful...

No doubt on being careful and not applying beginner level early turn in (way too much too soon).


The real key is knowing which corners to use early turn in on.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by M3MPH1S

Another E92 checking in to the 4 tire club. I did remove the bottom seat cushions and the plastic cupholder thing to make it easier, but the seat backs are still in place

i went to a track day to meet a guy who was selling a set of tires. wife and dog ended up staying home, so i had plenty of room- four across the back seat, two in the roof rack, one in the trunk (didn't bring the two usual folding chairs), and one on the front seat.
including the tires i was rolling on, i moved 12 tires and a track tools.

[DreamTime]

Spent the weekend driving in the rain at Mid Ohio. Overcame my fear of driving on track in the rain, although it was a little stressful lol. Every person who told me to not puss out when it's raining and get my butt out there because you learn SO much driving in the rain... well, they were right I managed to catch the car every time she stepped out, never fully spun once. Now I just need to get back to Mid Ohio sometime during a non-rainy weekend lmao, because damn, what a track.

I just wanted to put this here for any other HPDE students who might read this thread. I want to encourage everyone to drive in the rain, the car control skills you walk away with are invaluable.

[CorruptCommie]

Drive in the rain, unless it's Mid Ohio. Whoever told you to go out, must not be local lol.