BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Wheels + Tires Sponsored by The Tire Rack
  TireRack

KEEP M3POST ALIVE BY DOING YOUR TIRERACK SHOPPING FROM THIS BANNER LINK!
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      12-06-2010, 06:56 PM   #1
advans
Advansolosis
215
Rep
1,445
Posts

Drives: ///M+////AMG
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: NYC

iTrader: (1)

Nitrogen Fill

So guys,

A buddy of mine did me this huge favor of putting on my Blizzak WS60s on my Winter wheels, and decided to nitro fill the Blizzaks as well as my Current PS2s/ZCP wheels.

My gosh, it's a definite noticeable difference! I feel that the car is a bit more stuck to the ground and the car has less bounce! even driving with EDC on Sport in NYC!

Just wondering if any other fanatics have nitro-fill!
__________________

2011 E90 M3, ESS VT2-650, 2015 GL550
Appreciate 0
      12-06-2010, 07:31 PM   #2
ThunderMoose
Lieutenant Colonel
744
Rep
1,848
Posts

Drives: PY E46 M3 and SG E46 M3
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: League City, TX

iTrader: (0)

ideal gas law - assuming air is dry, there should be no difference between N2 and Air
Appreciate 0
      12-06-2010, 07:31 PM   #3
Dave2
First Lieutenant
Dave2's Avatar
124
Rep
371
Posts

Drives: '11 M3 Convertible
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by advans View Post
So guys,

A buddy of mine did me this huge favor of putting on my Blizzak WS60s on my Winter wheels, and decided to nitro fill the Blizzaks as well as my Current PS2s/ZCP wheels.

My gosh, it's a definite noticeable difference! I feel that the car is a bit more stuck to the ground and the car has less bounce! even driving with EDC on Sport in NYC!

Just wondering if any other fanatics have nitro-fill!


Yeaaaaaaaah. Considering that air is ~78% nitrogen anyway. My immediate suspicion is that any difference you detect is due to a difference in tire pressure before and after the nitrogen fill.
Appreciate 0
      12-06-2010, 07:33 PM   #4
Dave2
First Lieutenant
Dave2's Avatar
124
Rep
371
Posts

Drives: '11 M3 Convertible
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMoose View Post
ideal gas law - assuming air is dry, there should be no difference between N2 and Air
Ah , yes the old pV=nRT.
Appreciate 0
      12-07-2010, 08:31 AM   #5
jeffnnj
Second Lieutenant
jeffnnj's Avatar
United_States
14
Rep
281
Posts

Drives: 2011 E93 M3
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: NNJ, USA

iTrader: (0)

Okay, I had it in my summer tires on my 2008 550i. I took them off around Thanksgiving and put them back on the car in late March. Three of them were down close to 3 PSI when one of the touted benefits of nitrogen is that the tires don't lose air. I think it's total BS.
__________________
2011 M3 Convertible, Alpine White/Black Novillo Leather
2008 550i Sport, Platinum Gray/Natural Brown (retired)
2006 550i Silver Gray/Black (retired)
2002 M3 Convertible Titanium Silver/Black(retired)
1998 328i Convertible Arctic Silver/Gray(retired)
Appreciate 0
      12-07-2010, 11:38 AM   #6
1MORELAP
Captain
1MORELAP's Avatar
United_States
99
Rep
700
Posts

Drives: '22 911 GTS '19 X3, X5, X7
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Seattle, WA

iTrader: (0)

Nitrogen tire pressures must be different. I assume rule of thumb extra 3 PSI... but I do not know. BMW assumes you put air, and prints pressures for air, not Nitrogen.
__________________
I apologize for spelling mistakes up front, they are a result of multitasking.
Appreciate 0
      12-07-2010, 11:48 AM   #7
advans
Advansolosis
215
Rep
1,445
Posts

Drives: ///M+////AMG
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: NYC

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MORELAP View Post
Nitrogen tire pressures must be different. I assume rule of thumb extra 3 PSI... but I do not know. BMW assumes you put air, and prints pressures for air, not Nitrogen.
the machine they have was a swap, you fill your tires up to the PSI you want with Air, then you plug in the nitro machine and it does a air swap, its awesome, process takes abt 15 mins total for all 4 tires.
__________________

2011 E90 M3, ESS VT2-650, 2015 GL550
Appreciate 0
      12-07-2010, 04:21 PM   #8
GewoW
#thatsanicemovebro
GewoW's Avatar
Greece
198
Rep
3,920
Posts

Drives: E92 M3 LSB/Black 6MT
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Montreal, Canada

iTrader: (4)

Garage List
2011 BMW M3  [9.34]
the whole point is that given the fact that there is no water in a tire completely filled with nitrogen (as opposed to regular air) the tire will be much less prone to wide pressure variations with different temperatures (read pressure will not go up as much on the track)

as for if it works well or not...well...in theory...........
Appreciate 0
      12-07-2010, 05:16 PM   #9
MonteCarloM3
Banned
MonteCarloM3's Avatar
Uzbekistan
50
Rep
576
Posts

Drives: a shitty M3
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Uranus

iTrader: (0)

like totally, OMG, i got about 80% N2 fill the other day and it's superb, waayy better than before!!!
Appreciate 0
      12-07-2010, 05:21 PM   #10
Dave2
First Lieutenant
Dave2's Avatar
124
Rep
371
Posts

Drives: '11 M3 Convertible
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GewoW View Post
the whole point is that given the fact that there is no water in a tire completely filled with nitrogen (as opposed to regular air) the tire will be much less prone to wide pressure variations with different temperatures (read pressure will not go up as much on the track)

as for if it works well or not...well...in theory...........
I don't think so. The ideal gas law still applies to both air and nitrogen equally. If the temp goes up the pressure will go up proportionally regardless of the gas inside the tire. PV=nRT does not have a term for the element.

P=pressure
V=volume
n=moles of gas
T=temperature
R = gas constant = 0.0821 L atm K-1 mol-1.

Furthermore, tire temps will not get hot enough to cause any moisture in the tire to effect the pressure (it would need to approach boiling point) and that the amount of moisture in the air in the tire is insignificant.

If there is still some concern it would be money better spent to buy a dryer for your compressor rather than fill up with nitrogen.
Appreciate 0
      12-07-2010, 07:43 PM   #11
advans
Advansolosis
215
Rep
1,445
Posts

Drives: ///M+////AMG
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: NYC

iTrader: (1)

•Tires stay inflated. Nitrogen molecules are three times bigger than oxygen, so gas escapes more slowly from the tire. This keeps the tire inflated longer at the correct level.

•Fuel economy improved. Nitrogen expands less than oxygen, so tire pressure doesn't go up and down as tires heat and cool. Underinflated tires reduce gas mileage.

•Tires and wheels last longer. Underinflated tires get hot and wear more quickly. And since there's less moisture inside the tire, rubber rots and steel rims rust more slowly.

•Vehicles handle better. Nitrogen is more common in 18-wheelers than passenger cars. NASCAR and Formula One drivers use nitro for better steering and performance. Aircraft tires are inflated with nitrogen or helium to minimize expansion and contraction from changes in temperature and atmospheric pressure during flight.


Nitrogen is filled even on the ALMS M3 Cars. To those about that say it's BS. I felt the difference in terms of handling. the car has less bounce.
__________________

2011 E90 M3, ESS VT2-650, 2015 GL550
Appreciate 0
      12-07-2010, 08:09 PM   #12
kmarei
Major General
kmarei's Avatar
Egypt
685
Rep
6,844
Posts

Drives: 2018 Audi RS5 coupe
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Reston, VA

iTrader: (34)

Garage List
2018 Audi RS5  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonteCarloM3 View Post
like totally, OMG, i got about 80% N2 fill the other day and it's superb, waayy better than before!!!
Like OMG!, 80 is like way too much, I use like 78%
Brb bff lol
Appreciate 0
      12-07-2010, 08:31 PM   #13
ThunderMoose
Lieutenant Colonel
744
Rep
1,848
Posts

Drives: PY E46 M3 and SG E46 M3
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: League City, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by advans View Post
•Tires stay inflated. Nitrogen molecules are three times bigger than oxygen, so gas escapes more slowly from the tire. This keeps the tire inflated longer at the correct level.

•Fuel economy improved. Nitrogen expands less than oxygen, so tire pressure doesn't go up and down as tires heat and cool. Underinflated tires reduce gas mileage.

•Tires and wheels last longer. Underinflated tires get hot and wear more quickly. And since there's less moisture inside the tire, rubber rots and steel rims rust more slowly.

•Vehicles handle better. Nitrogen is more common in 18-wheelers than passenger cars. NASCAR and Formula One drivers use nitro for better steering and performance. Aircraft tires are inflated with nitrogen or helium to minimize expansion and contraction from changes in temperature and atmospheric pressure during flight.


Nitrogen is filled even on the ALMS M3 Cars. To those about that say it's BS. I felt the difference in terms of handling. the car has less bounce.
Physics doesn't support your claim
* MW of N2 is 28, MW of O2 is 32 - doubtful that N2 molecule is bigger
* PV = nRT defines expansion of N2 AND AIR/O2 - basically they expand in exact same proportion with change in temperature
* Aircraft use N2 because they want bone dry gas, since water in air would freeze during flight. Also, I seem to remember there is some concern with tire rupture with air being a fire concern, but I could be dreaming that one.

discuss...
Appreciate 0
      12-07-2010, 08:43 PM   #14
Dave2
First Lieutenant
Dave2's Avatar
124
Rep
371
Posts

Drives: '11 M3 Convertible
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by advans View Post
•Tires stay inflated. Nitrogen molecules are three times bigger than oxygen, so gas escapes more slowly from the tire. This keeps the tire inflated longer at the correct level.

•Fuel economy improved. Nitrogen expands less than oxygen, so tire pressure doesn't go up and down as tires heat and cool. Underinflated tires reduce gas mileage.

•Tires and wheels last longer. Underinflated tires get hot and wear more quickly. And since there's less moisture inside the tire, rubber rots and steel rims rust more slowly.

•Vehicles handle better. Nitrogen is more common in 18-wheelers than passenger cars. NASCAR and Formula One drivers use nitro for better steering and performance. Aircraft tires are inflated with nitrogen or helium to minimize expansion and contraction from changes in temperature and atmospheric pressure during flight.


Nitrogen is filled even on the ALMS M3 Cars. To those about that say it's BS. I felt the difference in terms of handling. the car has less bounce.

1) Nitrogen DOES NOT expand less than oxygen. See Ideal Gas Law...again.
2) I have NEVER seen a tire rot or wheel rust from the minute amount of moisture in air inside a tire. I have to call "Shenanigans" on this one.
3) Aircraft tires are filled with nitrogen because nitrogen is not an oxidizer (like oxygen) and will not support combustion. It is good to avoid the chance of combustion in the event of a tire blowout upon landing.
4) Better steering and performance? You are filling the tires with a gas to keep them inflated. If you can provide some specific science to show the type of gas used to inflate the tires makes a difference I will listen, otherwise I need to call "Shenanigans" again.
5) Car has less bounce? Are you trying to say that nitrogen reacts differently than air, which is 78% nitrogen, to compression and expansion? I hate to repeat myself, but I'm going back to the ideal gas law thing again.

Last edited by Dave2; 12-07-2010 at 08:52 PM..
Appreciate 0
      12-07-2010, 08:48 PM   #15
TurboFan
Ski bum
TurboFan's Avatar
316
Rep
6,198
Posts

Drives: sideways
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Knee deep in the pow

iTrader: (8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by advans View Post
•Tires stay inflated. Nitrogen molecules are three times bigger than oxygen, so gas escapes more slowly from the tire. This keeps the tire inflated longer at the correct level.
Uh huh. But you're talking about permiation here, not effusion. Most tire pressure loss is do to effusion - leaks between the tire bead and rim, valve stem, stem core, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by advans View Post
•Fuel economy improved. Nitrogen expands less than oxygen, so tire pressure doesn't go up and down as tires heat and cool. Underinflated tires reduce gas mileage.
Not true. Review your gas laws.

Quote:
Originally Posted by advans View Post
•Tires and wheels last longer. Underinflated tires get hot and wear more quickly. And since there's less moisture inside the tire, rubber rots and steel rims rust more slowly.
Underinflation is not fixed by nitrogen, per point #1. Fill your tires with dry air. Synthetic rubber tires will wear out long before they rot out.

Who's using nitrogen with steel rims?? But either way, that's BS too. Nitrogen is not a magically dry gas. During manufacturing (isolation), there's plenty of moisture in the gas. It's run through a dryer, just like the air in my compressor. Nitrogen is dry because it's run through a dryer. They're cheap, get one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by advans View Post
•Vehicles handle better. Nitrogen is more common in 18-wheelers than passenger cars. NASCAR and Formula One drivers use nitro for better steering and performance. Aircraft tires are inflated with nitrogen or helium to minimize expansion and contraction from changes in temperature and atmospheric pressure during flight.

Nitrogen is filled even on the ALMS M3 Cars. To those about that say it's BS. I felt the difference in terms of handling. the car has less bounce.
Less bounce is due to a properly inflated tire, which is the "better handling". The modulus of elasticity for air vs. nitro is nearly identical, and the differences can not be detected outside of a very sophisticated laboratory. NASCAR and F1 will do all kinds of crazy shit for an edge, whether it's there or not.
__________________

1999 e46 328i Ti Silver / Black[retired]
2007 e90 335xi Jet Black / Black[retired]
2011 e70 X5 35d Vermillion Red / Cinnamon
2011 e92 M3 LeMans / Fox Red extended
Appreciate 0
      12-07-2010, 09:01 PM   #16
advans
Advansolosis
215
Rep
1,445
Posts

Drives: ///M+////AMG
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: NYC

iTrader: (1)

lol oh man, why so serious?

http://www.nitrofill.com/nitrogen-fi...ires-faqs.aspx
__________________

2011 E90 M3, ESS VT2-650, 2015 GL550
Appreciate 0
      12-07-2010, 10:09 PM   #17
GregW / Oregon
Commander-In-Chief
2070
Rep
8,898
Posts

Drives: 2023 M2 Coupe, 2020 GLE 450
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Lake Oswego, OR

iTrader: (3)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by advans View Post
I'm sure these "facts" are unbiased, being from a vendor. Bottom line is that nitrogen is a marginally better gas for tire inflation. I'm not going to tell anyone not to use it, but the benefit for most people does not support the cost, IMO.
__________________

Greg Lake Oswego, Oregon, USA
2023 M2 Coupe - Brooklyn Grey/Cognac/CF, 6MT; 2020 MB GLE 450
Appreciate 0
      12-08-2010, 06:39 AM   #18
advans
Advansolosis
215
Rep
1,445
Posts

Drives: ///M+////AMG
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: NYC

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon View Post
I'm sure these "facts" are unbiased, being from a vendor. Bottom line is that nitrogen is a marginally better gas for tire inflation. I'm not going to tell anyone not to use it, but the benefit for most people does not support the cost, IMO.
lol I wouldn't have paid for it, I got it done for free. in all of my tires.
__________________

2011 E90 M3, ESS VT2-650, 2015 GL550
Appreciate 0
      12-08-2010, 09:11 AM   #19
GregW / Oregon
Commander-In-Chief
2070
Rep
8,898
Posts

Drives: 2023 M2 Coupe, 2020 GLE 450
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Lake Oswego, OR

iTrader: (3)

Garage List
Nitrogen fill & cold temps

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
The reality is there is no tangible benefit to using nitrogen in street vehicle tires. It's just another sales job for the gullible public who are actually foolish enough to pay for it.

In the auto industry these scams are known as a "cash-flow-device" where in they take the cash out of your pocket and flow it into their bank account.
I did just read in the 1/11 R&T (p. 106) this from a Faribanks driver, "...one advantage to nitrogen tire fills: enhanced pressure stability in cold temepratures. With modern tire pressure monitoring systems, annoying warning lights are commonly lit in the morning when the air is cold and thus pressure drops. And in Alaska, it can take a long time for temperatures to rise. 'Swapping nitrogen for moisture-lden aur virtually eliminates this annoying situation for owners of newer vehicles in climates where extreme cold is a way of life,' he advises"
__________________

Greg Lake Oswego, Oregon, USA
2023 M2 Coupe - Brooklyn Grey/Cognac/CF, 6MT; 2020 MB GLE 450
Appreciate 0
      12-08-2010, 10:30 AM   #20
ben@tirerack
M3Post Supporting Vendor
87
Rep
964
Posts

Drives: 740i
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: South Bend, IN

iTrader: (0)

Greg has it right. Benefits of nitrogen do exist, but for passenger car applications are negligible as compared to *well maintained* tires with reasonably dry air.

If it gets cold out, and pressure drops with temperature, just add some air. That'll fix that pesky TPMS light.

If you're getting it free, there's no reason not to use nitrogen.. Keep on rockin. If a shop is trying to sell it to you for $10 per tire, it's not worth it.
__________________
_______________________________________________
I have accepted a new position at Tire Rack and am no longer in the sales department. gary@tirerack.com is available to assist with M3 questions.
Appreciate 0
      12-08-2010, 11:09 AM   #21
advans
Advansolosis
215
Rep
1,445
Posts

Drives: ///M+////AMG
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: NYC

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ben@tirerack View Post
Greg has it right. Benefits of nitrogen do exist, but for passenger car applications are negligible as compared to *well maintained* tires with reasonably dry air.

If it gets cold out, and pressure drops with temperature, just add some air. That'll fix that pesky TPMS light.

If you're getting it free, there's no reason not to use nitrogen.. Keep on rockin. If a shop is trying to sell it to you for $10 per tire, it's not worth it.
thankyou
__________________

2011 E90 M3, ESS VT2-650, 2015 GL550
Appreciate 0
      12-08-2010, 11:12 AM   #22
Kyoshi71
Colonel
Kyoshi71's Avatar
93
Rep
2,528
Posts

Drives: 2010 M3 Coupe
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New York

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
I hope your comments are sarcasm/joke?

I was thinking the exact same thing +1

Next he'll be dyno testing with & w/o Nitrogen
__________________
"But resist we much; we must; and we will much; about that be committed."
~Rev. Al Sharpton


2010 E92 M3|Silverstone II|M-DCT|NCSW|2MT|ZCW|ZPP|ZTP|302|507|Gas Guzzler Tax
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:49 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST