BMW M3 vs. Audi RS5

[footie]

Originally Posted by Levi

I don't say 'better' in terms of performance but in terms of preference. In other words: The RS5 is better than M3, but I prefere the worse M3 with its RWD.

I now see what you meant.

Though I still think when you get the chance to try it out you will be surprised as to how much more involving it is compared to the RS4, especially when combined with the sportsdiff.

[Eau Rouge]

Originally Posted by footie

You see, there is where I seriously argue to the death, your comment that the RS5 can't be better because of it's use of AWD, maybe the wording needs to be changed because can't be 'better' suggests that it's can't be superior and I'm sorry but the RS5 will be superior. Maybe you should say something like, 'for many here the RS5 isn't an option because using AWD means some of the entertainment will be missing'. Now that is something I can agree with and also believe.

But even then I would suggest all doubters to sample it when it does come to the US because I think many will be expecting another RS4 and I can assure you that the RS5 isn't that car.

A single point.

I suspect that even you will agree that the challenge posed by a 400+hp RWD is greater than that posed by a 400+hp AWD. Switch off DSC, something that isn't exactly recommended by the manufacturer, and the challenge increases significantly. People drive for various reasons, and some relish challenges behind the wheel more than others. So, in a sense, while the challenge difference could be construed as entertainment by whomever, there are some who would pass on the opportunity to drive a "safer" ride for no other fact than that they seek a level of engagement/challenge/entertainment that simply cannot be delivered by any AWD vehicle; MT or Auto.

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by footie

Autumn/Fall 2011 and according to what I have heard, there may well be a manual by that time.

I also said a while back that the TT-RS might well go to the States and I would imagine that it too will get the go ahead as production of this model could be stepped up with the RS6 ending production shortly.

I just heard it will not be out till spring 2012 in NA and the manual will not be an option!

[footie]

Originally Posted by shiggy

I just heard it will not be out till spring 2012 in NA and the manual will not be an option!

I have been told different but either way the good news is it's going to the US. Also I actually said 'there may well be a manual by then', this is not the same a definite, this is still a limited run car, but I still think the likelihood of a manual is quite high.

[Archon]

Originally Posted by footie

Either us guys invent things or you simply don't listen, the RS5 won't destory the M3 as you are claiming I have stated.

I think on numerous occasions I have said that the 'Competition Package' has been put together to keep the M3 in touch with the RS5 in relation to track times. The RS5 acceleration figures (unofficial) are closer to that of the C63 which means it is slightly ahead of an M-DCT M3. Track times on the ring are expected to be between 7:55-7:59 depending on conditions and rubber used at time of test, which I might add is roughly 10s better than the M3 depending on whether it's using CUP+ or PS2. Where the RS5 will really score over the M3 is in it's ability to cover ground extremely quickly, yet safely.

Overall, whether it's in acceleration, handling, braking, in-gear times, economy, emissions, in fact everything will be that little bit better than the M3 which when all of this is taken into consideration proves that Audi have indeed produced a superior car.

Footie,

Now that it seems the RS5 is coming to the USA, this comparo is more meaningful to many here.

Your opinion, the only E92 M3 "Ring" time reported is 8:05 and that was with a 6spd 2007 model.
http://www.fastestlaps.com/car46f388b437911.html

You think the RS5 will do 7:55-7:59. Where does the 2011 M3 with Comp Package and DCT fall into? Given same driver, HvS

[bobbyd1961]

the audis are beautiful cars. if there was a 5 seater RS version i would have seriousely considered it

[mPlasticDesign]

My inside Audi source says the biggest reason the RS5 became so important to Audi was because the the S5 was such an utter failure. Audi insiders realized that consumers were swayed towards M3's for about the same price or even 335i's for less money while the poorer performing S5's were collecting dust on showroom floors, especially the 6MT's.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Archon

Footie,

Now that it seems the RS5 is coming to the USA, this comparo is more meaningful to many here.

Your opinion, the only E92 M3 "Ring" time reported is 8:05 and that was with a 6spd 2007 model.
http://www.fastestlaps.com/car46f388b437911.html

You think the RS5 will do 7:55-7:59. Where does the 2011 M3 with Comp Package and DCT fall into? Given same driver, HvS

I would gladly give my opinion on this, though I know that giving such an opinion will only anger most of you with what I will write.

OK, I think the Comp pack will drop the M3 by 3-4 seconds, as for what DCT will bring is debateable, mainly because Sportauto haven't posted times even though they have tested it there which suggests that on the ring the improvement is either not noticeable or due to it's early down shift issues proved to be slower. I personally reckon that it should account for at least a couple of seconds per lap, so in my opinion is will keep in touch with the RS5 on most track, admittedly this will only be the case in the hands of a professional because in the hands of the rest the gap will increase as the ability of each driver decreases.

[footie]

Originally Posted by ///Metak

My inside Audi source says the biggest reason the RS5 became so important to Audi was because the the S5 was such an utter failure. Audi insiders realized that consumers were swayed towards M3's for about the same price or even 335i's for less money while the poorer performing S5's were collecting dust on showroom floors, especially the 6MT's.

You're a funny guy. Good one.

[Archon]

Originally Posted by footie

I would gladly give my opinion on this, though I know that giving such an opinion will only anger most of you with what I will write.

OK, I think the Comp pack will drop the M3 by 3-4 seconds, as for what DCT will bring is debateable, mainly because Sportauto haven't posted times even though they have tested it there which suggests that on the ring the improvement is either not noticeable or due to it's early down shift issues proved to be slower. I personally reckon that it should account for at least a couple of seconds per lap, so in my opinion is will keep in touch with the RS5 on most track, admittedly this will only be the case in the hands of a professional because in the hands of the rest the gap will increase as the ability of each driver decreases.

You mean at the absolute limit by the hands of a pro, the times will be more or less the same?

[footie]

Originally Posted by Archon

You mean at the absolute limit by the hands of a pro, the times will be more or less the same?

If you mean with the DCT and Competition package, then yes it will be very close, probably no more than 0.5-0.7 in normal tracks, but as I have always said this is the reason for BMW to develop this package.

But you also have to remember that for the majority of people there will be a dramatic difference, especially on public roads where taking the ideal line is more difficult and more dangerous to do.

[Echo M3]

Originally Posted by footie

You're a funny guy. Good one.

I would believe it. Not only are S5's rather rare, but I have heard of some pretty insane discounts for S5s sitting on the lot. As much as 10-15% of list price or more!

This is the situation in the States, anyway. Perhaps it is a different case in Europe.

[Prit@Euro Autowerx]

both are nice cars.... However the RS5 will slightly be abit more rare than the M3... I have owned an S4 and M3 and both impress in their own categories...

[footie]

In the UK you can buy either an Audi or BMW with anything from 6-9% from a main dealer and more from a broker. In fact at the time I was trying to sell my M3 the dealer in my area was offering a new demo with delivery miles with 16% discount. Admittedly this was at the peak of the global economical fear but still that is a he'll of a discount.

Needless to say I lost even more.

[askmeaboutkfc]

Originally Posted by footie

Autumn/Fall 2011 and according to what I have heard, there may well be a manual by that time.

I also said a while back that the TT-RS might well go to the States and I would imagine that it too will get the go ahead as production of this model could be stepped up with the RS6 ending production shortly.

coming in 2011? Or coming in 2010 as a 2011 model?

[mPlasticDesign]

Originally Posted by askmeaboutkfc

coming in 2011? Or coming in 2010 as a 2011 model?

My inside Audi sources say 2011 as a 2012. I would'nt really trust Footies sources. Just a couple of days ago he said no 6MT now it's a maybe. Sounds like just stuff that he reads on the internet. JMO

[xxe92xx]

Originally Posted by ///Metak

My inside Audi sources say 2011 as a 2012. I would'nt really trust Footies sources. Just a couple of days ago he said no 6MT now it's a maybe. Sounds like just stuff that he reads on the internet. JMO

+1

[footie]

I don't have control over what Audi decide, if and it is an if, if they decided to offer a manual then I nor anyone outside of the governing board decide such things of which I am not a member. Just a couple of examples of them changing their decisions are the TT-RS being launched with solely a manual to soon being offered with a DSG and the RS5 being a no go for the States to now coming in 2011.

Just look at the indecision present on this forum, I have been acused of being an Audi employee, to now a kid hearing things on the Internet, LOL.

If it doubt of my prior knowledge why not ask South if I didn't tell him the approx price, standard spec of the RS5 and I might add that the UK car offers a different spec to that of Europe, I gave prior info on the introduction of the Competition pack for the M3 months before any official release from BMW and also that the M3 GTS would offer a different DSC system before anyone else had reported it.

When the RS5 is finally tested and you see how accurate my comments are will you still think I know Jack shit.

[MVF4Rrider]

Originally Posted by footie

When the RS5 is finally tested and you see how accurate my comments are will you still think I know Jack shit.

Most your comments are subjective or interpretable so why not? No one is debating it will be a nice car and competitive with the M3 but spec sheets aside whether it compares to the M3 in desirablility and sports GT worthiness is always subjective. The fastest/quickest car is not necessarily the best or better. Too many aspects enter the equation to satisfy one and all. What you can state as fact is Audi haven't got much of the US market as they usually fall very short in overall appeal and buying one is not smart money spent as they don't hold their value. UKers like Audis far more than Americans. Audi falls very short of BMW in market position and it's doubtful they'll catch up in my lifetime.

Seems you always prefer the last word so go for it.

[footie]

I can understand why BMW need to be competitively priced in the US even if you don't, unlike Audi which has the funds and security of the second largest automotive campany BMW don't have such luxuries so need to shift large quantities of product to aid buying power and where better than the largest Market in the world. So you see Audi don't need the same sales quantities and can chose to be more exclusive.

I also fully understand that to you the only market of importance is your own and base all of your opinions on this but the web is worldwide and comments should be based as such. But please tell me what will you say if AoA decided to price the RS5 in line with that of the M3, will you still be as close minded to the possibility of owning an Audi or will you have the good sense to sample before dismissing it because it's not a BMW?

[mPlasticDesign]

Originally Posted by footie

I can understand why BMW need to be competitively priced in the US even if you don't, unlike Audi which has the funds and security of the second largest automotive campany BMW don't have such luxuries so need to shift large quantities of product to aid buying power and where better than the largest Market in the world. So you see Audi don't need the same sales quantities and can chose to be more exclusive.

I also fully understand that to you the only market of importance is your own and base all of your opinions on this but the web is worldwide and comments should be based as such....

You know, what good is your "insider" information if it changes 10 times before it becomes official? If you were offering that kind of stock insider info I wouldn't trust a single penny of my money with it! Your M.O. is to use ambiguous words like maybe, likely etc. follow by a wink or eyeroll emoticon.

You keep pounding your chest defending your opinion! Opinions aside, what you said above is totally incorrect. Let's talk FACTS. Audi has seen a decline in sales in their largest market(Germany). A market in which they sell 4times as many cars than they sell in the US. I guess they are achieving their goal in exusivity in the US, congratulations Audi. You also say Audi doesn't have to push volume in the "largest market in the world"(The US) because they got so much money and they can afford to be more exclusive, that's why Audis biggest sales increase was in the Asian-pacific market, especially China, which I would argue is the largest untapped auto market in the world! So much for exculsivity...

I suggest you read your post again, maybe you will realize how it's little more than condesending dribble.

[MVF4Rrider]

Originally Posted by ///Metak

You know, what good is your "insider" information if it changes 10 times before it becomes official? If you were offering that kind of stock insider info I wouldn't trust a single penny of my money with it! Your M.O. is to use ambiguous words like maybe, likely etc. follow by a wink or eyeroll emoticon.

You keep pounding your chest defending your opinion! Opinions aside, what you said above is totally incorrect. Let's talk FACTS. Audi has seen a decline in sales in their largest market(Germany). A market in which they sell 4times as many cars than they sell in the US. I guess they are achieving their goal in exusivity in the US, congratulations Audi. You also say Audi doesn't have to push volume in the "largest market in the world"(The US) because they got so much money and they can afford to be more exclusive, that's why Audis biggest sales increase was in the Asian-pacific market, especially China, which I would argue is the largest untapped auto market in the world! So much for exculsivity...

I suggest you read your post again, maybe you will realize how it's little more than condesending dribble.

Well said ad spot on. I just spent the last 5 years living in Germany and very much recognize this industry on a global scale. Audi is no loss leader brand and it's certainly not exclusive. I'm sure many on this board have never seen an Audi A2. The UK market is very strange and by no means represents any other market. I like Audi products and always support Audi in DTM, Le Mans, and ALMS. I like their RS cars too but not over some competitors. Ultimately I wouldn't buy one (new) due to the rate of depreciation and the fact they aren't as fun to drive nor evoke much passion. No one is saying the RS5 will suck. But I doubt many will choose to purchase it either no matter what performance it's capable of.