Track days: M3 or Camaro SS 1LE?

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by New2Roundel

If this is just HPDEs, it really doesn't matter which is faster around the track. I mean, I was on track in my corrado a couple years back and there was someone with a potentially brand new previous gen Camaro 1LE. I literally lapped that car. Was it because my car is a track monster devouring anything in its way? Is it because I'm actually a top running F1 driver in real life and have made skills? Neither. The driver of that car likely never did a track day before. He was literally puttering around the course. It was almost dangerous how slow this person was moving.

So to me, the best HPDE car is one that won't overheat over a 20-30 mins track session. A car that only needs track pads for the brakes to be up to snuff for a track session. Something that doesn't embarrass itself in a power or handling perspective. The 1LE is without a doubt the faster car around a track (stock for stock)--it has much bigger tires, much stickier tires, more power, and a chassis at least as good as what in the M3. However, it's still a pony car. Which means the dimensions and visibility are not as ideal, IMO, as our cars. I feel a lot more confident in what's going on with the e9X than I did in my '12 Mustang. I haven't sat in a modern camaro that didn't give me the same feeling as in my old mustang. Nothing wrong with the camaro at all---it's a very serious machine, but frankly, I just have no interest in one. For me, it's all about feel and confidence from behind the wheel and the e9X is perfect, at least for me.

Your '12 mustang had a solid rear axle no? I would think that would contribute greatly to your confidence between the 2 cars. The new Mustangs (and I'd assume Camaro's) are pretty confidence inspiring and easy to drive fast around a corner just like the M3. They feel a bit less refined and more brutish doing so, but they aren't wild like the previous generation pony cars.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by dparm

The stock Camaro SS 1LE brakes are huge and just fine. Obviously you want better pads but they have plenty of endurance. I have talked to multiple SS 1LE guys at track days and none of them have complained about brakes, even during 30-minute sessions. My Corvette has the same brakes & horsepower but is 300 pounds lighter -- no issues either.

As for the LT1 engine reliability, the motor issues C&D had were in very early production cars and I think it was due to some oil filter housing problem (metal shavings entered the oil IIRC) that has since been fixed. The LT1 is pretty stout. (BTW, the LT4 is the Z06/ZL1 engine which suffers from heat soak under track use)

Huge brakes mean little to me. The C63 and RS4 have 'huge brakes' and both suffered fade before the sliding caliper setup of the M3. The 135i has huge brakes as well which are garbage. People equate size to quality and it's a big mistake.
In a world where GT3 guys are upgrading their rotors I am quite confident that the SS needs new ones as well.

But are any of those guys with the Camaros fast? I've run across a few Z28s, ZL1s and SS's and none are fast, so that automatically disqualified anything they tell me about the car. [to clarify, I'm sure the cars are fast, they are just not being driven fast]

As far as wheels are concerned, you do not 'need' wider wheels in the M3 either. The ZCP setup I have as a secondary track set with RE71Rs were enough to do under 1:40 at MidOhio which is not bad for a 6MT M3.

You're right about the LT1 vs LT4 and I do recall reading about the filter contamination being the cause of the blown engines. Hopefully it's fixed now. I would still bet on an S65 surviving track use better than an LT1 without any mods although admittedly this is an assumption

Overall it seems americans are getting very serious about track performance and I love it. The GS Vette was very tempting and who knows, I may get one in the future. I still have serious questions about how a Camaro/Stang/Vette will take to tracking hundreds of days

[dparm]

Originally Posted by radiantm3

1LE is probably on better tires

It is not. The SS 1LE gets the mediocre Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar tires, probably to help keep price down. The Corvettes get the "better" Pilot Super Sport and Pilot Sport Cup 2s. Remember, Chevy has to be careful to keep the Corvette as the halo car and justify why it costs more despite being only a little bit faster.

Fortunately, you can get the new PS4S and CEC tires for the 1LE, as well as the older PSS.

[dmk08]

Originally Posted by radiantm3

Your '12 mustang had a solid rear axle no? I would think that would contribute greatly to your confidence between the 2 cars. The new Mustangs (and I'd assume Camaro's) are pretty confidence inspiring and easy to drive fast around a corner just like the M3. They feel a bit less refined and more brutish doing so, but they aren't wild like the previous generation pony cars.

Definitely. I pushed the SS hard in the mountains off Highway 1 and it was very inspiring. The suspension was smooth. It was more confidence building than my M4 which you kind of never knew when it was going to break loose.

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by dparm

It is not. The SS 1LE gets the mediocre Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar tires, probably to help keep price down. The Corvettes get the "better" Pilot Super Sport and Pilot Sport Cup 2s. Remember, Chevy has to be careful to keep the Corvette as the halo car and justify why it costs more despite being only a little bit faster.

Fortunately, you can get the new PS4S and CEC tires for the 1LE, as well as the older PSS.

Is it the ZL1 1LE that gets Cup 2's (or some equivalent)? I thought one of them did or maybe it's an extra option.

[drunkenup]

Originally Posted by radiantm3

Is it the ZL1 1LE that gets Cup 2's (or some equivalent)? I thought one of them did or maybe it's an extra option.

ZL1 1LE gets F1 Supercar 3R's which are 100tw and look extremely reminiscent of Trofeo R's. The standard ZL1 and SS 1LE comes with 220tw F1 Supercar 3's and from the sound of it might not be quite RE71R but definitely better than a PSS.

Can the GT350 be ordered with Cup 2s? It's definitely marketed towards more mainstream buyers than a SS 1LE or ZL1 but even the Focus RS can be had with Cup 2s...

[dparm]

Originally Posted by drunkenup

ZL1 1LE gets F1 Supercar 3R's which are 100tw and look extremely reminiscent of Trofeo R's. The standard ZL1 and SS 1LE comes with 220tw F1 Supercar 3's and from the sound of it might not be quite RE71R but definitely better than a PSS.

Can the GT350 be ordered with Cup 2s? It's definitely marketed towards more mainstream buyers than a SS 1LE or ZL1 but even the Focus RS can be had with Cup 2s...

The Supercar 3R is only sold in two sizes so it's literally a bespoke tier for the ZL1 1LE. Not saying it's a bad tire, but obviously there is way more R&D put into the more mainstream tires.

The GT350R gets PSC2, but they can be easily installed onto the regular GT350 wheels.

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by dparm

The Supercar 3R is only sold in two sizes so it's literally a bespoke tier for the ZL1 1LE. Not saying it's a bad tire, but obviously there is way more R&D put into the more mainstream tires.

The GT350R gets PSC2, but they can be easily installed onto the regular GT350 wheels.

I hope the last part is true. I haven't done any real research on what other tires fit on my wheels, but Tirerack only lists PSS as fitting. Personally I'd rather run RE71R's over PSC2's as they are far cheaper and provide similar grip levels, but I don't think they are available in these sizes. Will have to look at other wheel options.

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by drunkenup

ZL1 1LE gets F1 Supercar 3R's which are 100tw and look extremely reminiscent of Trofeo R's. The standard ZL1 and SS 1LE comes with 220tw F1 Supercar 3's and from the sound of it might not be quite RE71R but definitely better than a PSS.

Can the GT350 be ordered with Cup 2s? It's definitely marketed towards more mainstream buyers than a SS 1LE or ZL1 but even the Focus RS can be had with Cup 2s...

Ironically you can't order a normal GT350 with cup2's, but you can the mustang gt with one of the track packs.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by radiantm3

I hope the last part is true. I haven't done any real research on what other tires fit on my wheels, but Tirerack only lists PSS as fitting. Personally I'd rather run RE71R's over PSC2's as they are far cheaper and provide similar grip levels, but I don't think they are available in these sizes. Will have to look at other wheel options.

The R has slightly wider wheels and slightly wider tires but it's well within spec to run the PSC2s on a non R.

[rymerc]

Having owned a couple z28s I'd love to get back into one, but the new camaros interior is so awful I just can't. Off-center steering wheel (more than the m3) no visibility, and annoyingly pricey consumables make it a NOPE for me. The m3 is comfy year around, comfy going to the track, comfy on the track, and similar price point to a 5th gen ss 1le.

Pretty good info in here, thought I was in the track section for a minute

[dparm]

Originally Posted by rymerc

annoyingly pricey consumables

The tires aren't cheap, I'll give you that, but stuff like oil, filters, brakes, etc. are on-par with any other car in the same performance category, IMO.

[macdude357]

Yes, the latest couple of generations of "M3 killer" cars like the Boss 302, GT350, Camaro SS have beaten the M3 laps times using a driver like Randy Pobst, in my experience, you don't really see that at the track.

One of the bench mark tracks here in SoCal is Buttonwillow 13CW. One of the popular track organizers, Speed Ventures, posts lap times here: http://www.speedventures.com/results/Default.aspx

I have friends that can run that track in < 2 mins in an E9x M3 with basic mods (tune/pullies and NT01s). I went back and looked at the last 2 years and I found exactly 3 of the M3 killers that have run a sub 2 at that track. One was a fully gutted/caged Mustang GT with 500hp, one was a Mustang GT with 500hp on slicks and one was actually a shop car from Trinity Auto Sport (I don't know much about that car but I know that Joe Yang from Trinity runs around a 1:50 in his track prepped E92 M3).

Now, I realize that not every driver pays for timing and a transponder but you would think you'd see at least a few of those cars running sub 2 in the last couple of years.

So while those cars are certainly capable of running much faster times, my guess is that for us mere mortals, it's harder to extract that kind of performance from those cars, where as the M3 is easier to drive close to the limit.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by macdude357

Yes, the latest couple of generations of "M3 killer" cars like the Boss 302, GT350, Camaro SS have beaten the M3 laps times using a driver like Randy Pobst, in my experience, you don't really see that at the track.

So while those cars are certainly capable of running much faster times, my guess is that for us mere mortals, it's harder to extract that kind of performance from those cars, where as the M3 is easier to drive close to the limit.

You are so right. The E9X M3 at least is a very forgiving, comfortable car to drive at or above the limit. Such noble reactions.
This makes them very fast. Other cars are way faster on paper but you don't see them crushing M3s at the track

[rymerc]

Originally Posted by dparm

The tires aren't cheap, I'll give you that, but stuff like oil, filters, brakes, etc. are on-par with any other car in the same performance category, IMO.

They do offer powerstop track day pads for $104 front and $65 rear, which is VERY attractive with the cheapo rotors. Just need an 18" wheelset that fits and it would be reasonable. Tire costs are literally DOUBLE the m3 tires I run, but who knows? Cheaper tires finally filtered down to the c6z maybe they will for the new camaros too eventually

[dparm]

Originally Posted by rymerc

They do offer powerstop track day pads for $104 front and $65 rear, which is VERY attractive with the cheapo rotors. Just need an 18" wheelset that fits and it would be reasonable. Tire costs are literally DOUBLE the m3 tires I run, but who knows? Cheaper tires finally filtered down to the c6z maybe they will for the new camaros too eventually

What's odd is the tire sizes they chose for that versus the Corvette. Give it some time and you should see more manufacturers offer their tires in that size; it took a year or two for the C7s to get anything other than the OEM Michelins.

[New2Roundel]

Originally Posted by radiantm3

Your '12 mustang had a solid rear axle no? I would think that would contribute greatly to your confidence between the 2 cars. The new Mustangs (and I'd assume Camaro's) are pretty confidence inspiring and easy to drive fast around a corner just like the M3. They feel a bit less refined and more brutish doing so, but they aren't wild like the previous generation pony cars.

The SRA wasn't the problem. It was the seating position which was too low, coupled with a car that simply had too much metal. I could never tell where the corners were on the mustang. This is the pony car approach.

[GOFAST M3]

Originally Posted by radiantm3

1LE is probably on better tires so I wouldn't doubt the SS 1LE is faster around the track than a normal GT350 and probably similar to the R. But as dparm said, there's a lot more to how good a car is than the lap time. I could have picked up an SS, or ZL1 (in standard or 1LE variants), but I don't care for how those cars make power. The GT350 is just filled with more drama and excitement when you drive it hard. The power band is so linear that it's not scary to drive with all the nannies off. That's not to say that I think the Camaro's are bad cars. Just a totally different driving experience and personal preference should dictate what you think is better, not what has a better lap time. Some people would rather drive a 911 Turbo S. I'll take the GT3 every time.

This is a great way to say it. The LS3 in my 2013 1LE was not much different in terms of power delivery than the LT1 is, and I had headers and a cam on my 1LE putting 460 to the wheels. I say that because my stock M3 is WAY more exciting to drive. Around town the LT1 is fun, with its low end torque but it dies up top.....just has no legs and a redline under 7,000 RPM(6500?).

A GT350 would be gobs more fun, but sadly the 1LE is way cheaper as a lot of guys are getting them sub $40's brand new and you will have to spend $50K now to get a lightly used 2017 GT350. The GT350 also has a long list of reliability issues.

If it helps, I would NEVER give up my M3 for a 1LE and I owned a far inferior version of the current. That said, you have only put 1,000 miles on yours though, so maybe something different is what you need?

Good luck man, go test drive one and while you're at it test drive a used GT350.

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by GOFAST M3

This is a great way to say it. The LS3 in my 2013 1LE was not much different in terms of power delivery than the LT1 is, and I had headers and a cam on my 1LE putting 460 to the wheels. I say that because my stock M3 is WAY more exciting to drive. Around town the LT1 is fun, with its low end torque but it dies up top.....just has no legs and a redline under 7,000 RPM(6500?).

A GT350 would be gobs more fun, but sadly the 1LE is way cheaper as a lot of guys are getting them sub $40's brand new and you will have to spend $50K now to get a lightly used 2017 GT350. The GT350 also has a long list of reliability issues.

If it helps, I would NEVER give up my M3 for a 1LE and I owned a far inferior version of the current. That said, you have only put 1,000 miles on yours though, so maybe something different is what you need?

Good luck man, go test drive one and while you're at it test drive a used GT350.

What's the long list? The only one I am aware of is some are experiencing increased oil consumption.

[chrisg123]

My aa level 2 e92 manual will destroy the ss on the track. I think even if I was stock I would. Camaro is just a camaro. You can’t compare an American Car with an m3. I had a supercharged c7 and I was very disappointed with it as well.

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by chrisg123

My aa level 2 e92 manual will destroy the ss on the track. I think even if I was stock I would. Camaro is just a camaro. You can’t compare an American Car with an m3. I had a supercharged c7 and I was very disappointed with it as well.

Irrational fanboy alert!

[Mjhyslop]

Originally Posted by dparm

The SS 1LE is an amazing bargain and will definitely outrun an M3 on the track.

If you can get past the mediocre interior and poor visibility, it's hard to find a more capable brand new car for that kind of money (~$45,000). I have run with some of them at the track and am always impressed with their performance.

+1 on the visibility. I hate the design of the windrows on the camaro. I'm 6'7 and just don't sit well in it and thought visability was terrible, although this was a few years ago on a regular camaro so I don't know if they have changed the seating and cabin. Other than that this appears about the best bang for buck for a track toy from what I've read. Go drive one to see if your M is worth getting rid of.