Will the G80 M3 redeem the M3?

[Transfer]

I love my E92 M3. Every day I get in, start it up, and marvel at how amazing it is. There are nearly no moments when i don't love the look and the drive. I'm realistic though and since I drive it daily to the tune of about 900 mi/month, it's already 7 years old, and I can't seem to go more than 3 years without itching for something new, I expect I'll be looking around within a few years.

Will the G80 M3 improve significantly upon the F80 M3? To me the F8x was a huge disappointment in all areas except track abilities. Additionally for me, roads are wet/slick that majority of the year here in the PNW and it's impossible to get the S55 torque to stick with RWD.

I already like what we're seeing of the G20 better than F20 and if the G80 rumors are true, it might put me over the edge for next car. The M3 isn't getting smaller so there's that, but the M2 comp is a great alternative as well and will likely be on the used market for ~$50k in 2-3 years. I'm just not sure I want a car that small.

So who else is becoming interested in the G80 M3? Likes? Dislikes?

My personal likes: M xDrive which can actually put all that torque to the pavement, more than ample power with or without comp pack, supposedly lighter although with AWD will probably be 3700 lbs, and likely improved aesthetics vs F8x.

Here's a render for kicks:

[Shiza]

Getting all the torque to the ground is definitely an issue with the F8x. But the main reason people hate on the car is the S55(exhaust note and other reasons) and the numb steering feel. Since the G8x is going to be using the S58, which is just an updated version of the S55, I expect it to be very similar in that area. Regarding the steering feel, I assume BMW will improve the electronic steering but it will never feel the same as a hydraulic rack.

[Richbot]

I think the M2 GC, if it's made, will redeem the M3

Not that the current M3 needs any redemption IMO, it's great, for its time

The next M3 is an M5 in all but name IMO, the sizes of the cars are just all kinds of out of proportion for my brain which first latched on to 80's and early 90's cars

B58 is not just an updated N55. It's the first of their I-6 "half a liter per cylinder" modular gas and diesel engine architecture which was announced way back in the early 2010's. Totally new design, even if the gross architecture and displacement is the same. The differences are huge, the timing chain isn't even in front anymore, water/air intercooling, shorter crank, longer stroke smaller bore, whole new head, but yeah otherwise it's basically an M20 from 1987

http://youwheel.com/home/2016/03/27/...linder-engine/

[EricSMG]

The F80ZCP in a dry/relatively warm climate is bonkers good as a street car. It's literally light-years better than the E92 M3 and that is a great car (I"ve owned both). Zero traction issues above 1st gear... I can use judicious amounts of power any place, any time. The thing freakin' RIPS, hooks and is on rails. Perhaps you drove an early model as they weren't sorted (huge torque hit early in the rev band, traction issues, mickey mouse damper valving). The late model ZCP and CS cars are phenomenal and very expertly calibrated. Big power, very easy to control.

Big torque must be respected and I don't see this changing with the G80.

[G80indy]

New gen is really an M5, size wise.....

[kyrix1st]

I'd rather spend few hundred bucks on the rear and get 305/30/18 tires than AWD. This low rpm high torque thing is getting out of hand and is just boring. AWD -> ZFat->tranny hates rev-> bog down at 7,200 rpm. No thanks!

[Montaver]

I'm sure it will be fantastic dynamically, however it's a massive car. A ZF8 speed with 4WD doesn't feel very M3 to me. The rumours of an M3 'pure' are certainly interesting. As someone else said an M2 GC would be ideal, 4 doors and close to e9x sizing. I like the styling, but I think the f8x and e9x both look fantastic in their own way.

I think the f8x will begin to be viewed more favourably over time. Once comp pack cars hit the high 40's i'll be very tempted to switch over.

[G80indy]

Damn
"M3" used to mean "Pure" !

[DanMpower]

Redeem? The F80 does not need any redeeming, objectively it's a superior car in every single way, "subjectively" it doesn't sound as good as the car it replaced.

The S55 has a very unique sound and it's definitely an acquired taste, I used to HATE the way it sounds but after owning it for a year, I've made a complete 180 and really, REALLY enjoy the way it sounds. I'm running a Titanium MPE exhaust on my F80 and it sounds incredible, similar to the M4 CS in the Pennzoil commercial but better with more pops and crackles.

I've yet to find an exhaust setup on my E92s that really makes me satisfied, currently running an Eisenmann Race and gone through 4 setups already.

If anything, the M3 AFTER the G80 will need to do the redeeming, ZF Automatic and AWD? Might as well give it an extra 5 inch of ground clearance and all-season tires while we're at it. The F80 is the first M3 generation to LOSE weight, I'm afraid the G80 will go back to packing pounds.

Not a fan of the Lexus rear end mashed with an Infiniti side profile either...

[roastbeef]

Nope.

[SYT_Shadow]

I expect:

-It will continue to be better than any rival for track use
-AWD is likely and is a massive disadvantage. Leave AWD for Audi fanboys
-8sp ZF will replace DCT. DCT is awesome on track so not sure the 8sp will hold up
-S58 will be a huge improvement vs S55. It will still sound like crap, like all 6 cylinder turbos

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I expect:

-It will continue to be better than any rival for track use
-AWD is likely and is a massive disadvantage. Leave AWD for Audi fanboys
-8sp ZF will replace DCT. DCT is awesome on track so not sure the 8sp will hold up
-S58 will be a huge improvement vs S55. It will still sound like crap, like all 6 cylinder turbos

Seriously. 295~305/30/18 is all you need to put down that torque. Drop torque slightly and give us 8000 rpm and we are all happy.

I saw ZFat on M140i refusing to downshift after 3 gymkhana runs, and that tranny is supposed to be good; I was actually very surprised when I tried to raise shift speed on F90 M5 test drive to see it already maxed out to three bars. Since the tranny can only rev to approx 7200 rpm due to oil foaming, it hesitates on downshifts while braking in fear of revving near redline and drop the tranny on the road.

S58, similar to S63 on F90, will get reduced rpm to around 7200 rpm if coupled with ZFat and more torque at low rpm so you can show your buddies how manly your car is. It will definitely feel like premature ejaculation at the higher rev with no additional pull, yet BMW M will still market it as "high revving engine" just like they did with M8 prototype...

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by M and Ms

Redeem? The F80 does not need any redeeming, objectively it's a superior car in every single way, "subjectively" it doesn't sound as good as the car it replaced.

Yep... ridiculous question if I'm honest. You either have solid seat time in a *late model* (preferably ZCP) F80 or you don't. And if you don't you literally have no clue how amazing the car really is.

Trust me guys - upon my first two test drives I was totally turned off by the F80. My god was wrong.... my head was so far up my ass it's not even funny.

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I expect:

-It will continue to be better than any rival for track use
-AWD is likely and is a massive disadvantage. Leave AWD for Audi fanboys
-8sp ZF will replace DCT. DCT is awesome on track so not sure the 8sp will hold up
-S58 will be a huge improvement vs S55. It will still sound like crap, like all 6 cylinder turbos

It sounds pretty good, actually, from inside the cabin. Stop listening to youtube videos of base-car drive by's. A ZCP car and/or a base car with a carefully selected muffler sounds pretty good. S65 good? Heck no, but there's a WIDE chasm between "sound like crap" and "sounding like an S65".

Back on topic, I think the G80 will have more emphasis on ride quality/NVH levels as the F80 is borderline too hardcore. I think the G80 will improve steering feel. I think the G80 *pure* will be quite a bit lighter. Should be essentially a polished F80 = WINNING.

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Seriously. 295~305/30/18 is all you need to put down that torque. Drop torque slightly and give us 8000 rpm and we are all happy.

I saw ZFat on M140i refusing to downshift after 3 gymkhana runs, and that tranny is supposed to be good; I was actually very surprised when I tried to raise shift speed on F90 M5 test drive to see it already maxed out to three bars. Since the tranny can only rev to approx 7200 rpm due to oil foaming, it hesitates on downshifts while braking in fear of revving near redline and drop the tranny on the road.

S58, similar to S63 on F90, will get reduced rpm to around 7200 rpm if coupled with ZFat and more torque at low rpm so you can show your buddies how manly your car is. It will definitely feel like premature ejaculation at the higher rev with no additional pull, yet BMW M will still market it as "high revving engine" just like they did with M8 prototype...

Dude - the ZCP cars do NOT have traction problems. Feel like a broken record here. I tear up the canyons in my ZCP without any traction issues whatsoever.

And regarding high rpm - focusing on the absolute redline rpm is meaningless and shortsighted. What matters behind the wheel is A) the motor's useable powerband and B) it's character as the revs rise. What we want is a motor that pulls hard all the way up.... where the actual limit is matters not.

The S55 is killer in that it A) has a super wide/potent working range (3k to 7k) and B) pulls reasonably hard (it's not S65 good but it's pretty good) to top of its working range. It certainly pulls harder/longer than the mainstream NA American V8s out there (LSX, Coyotes). Further, there are numerous aftermarket tunes specially designed to increase only the high rpm output - these are called the "linear" or "flat torque" tunes - they keep the midrange output near stock levels but gradually increase the boost as the rpms climb, thus replicating that high rpm NA motor feel (not that the S55 is really lacking much in stock form although, ideally, it would pull a little harder up top).

[Richbot]

The S55 sounds broken on startup and great at WOT/driven aggressively/when warm/etc. If you can stomach the S54, or think any BMW I-6 sounds "great", you ought to be able to at least live with the S55 in real life

Curious how the S55 "linear" tunes impact heat soak on track? Seems like you'd just be asking for trouble to make the turbos huff and puff at high rpm instead of pushing a lot of boost at low rpm and just short-shifting at 6500?

I think for G20/80 BMW saw the current best-handling small sedan chassis out there in the current IS250-350 (arguably, aside fromt he ATS) and were like I KNOW, we'll copy the rearend that'll make people think it handles the same as a toyota!

[DanMpower]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

Yep... ridiculous question if I'm honest. You either have solid seat time in a *late model* (preferably ZCP) F80 or you don't. And if you don't you literally have no clue how amazing the car really is.

Trust me guys - upon my first two test drives I was totally turned off by the F80. My god was wrong.... my head was so far up my ass it's not even funny.



It sounds pretty good, actually, from inside the cabin. Stop listening to youtube videos of base-car drive by's. A ZCP car and/or a base car with a carefully selected muffler sounds pretty good. S65 good? Heck no, but there's a WIDE chasm between "sound like crap" and "sounding like an S65".

Back on topic, I think the G80 will have more emphasis on ride quality/NVH levels as the F80 is borderline too hardcore. I think the G80 will improve steering feel. I think the G80 *pure* will be quite a bit lighter. Should be essentially a polished F80 = WINNING.



Dude - the ZCP cars do NOT have traction problems. Feel like a broken record here. I tear up the canyons in my ZCP without any traction issues whatsoever.

And regarding high rpm - focusing on the absolute redline rpm is meaningless and shortsighted. What matters behind the wheel is A) the motor's useable powerband and B) it's character as the revs rise. What we want is a motor that pulls hard all the way up.... where the actual limit is matters not.

The S55 is killer in that it A) has a super wide/potent working range (3k to 7k) and B) pulls reasonably hard (it's not S65 good but it's pretty good) to top of its working range. It certainly pulls harder/longer than the mainstream NA American V8s out there (LSX, Coyotes). Further, there are numerous aftermarket tunes specially designed to increase only the high rpm output - these are called the "linear" or "flat torque" tunes - they keep the midrange output near stock levels but gradually increase the boost as the rpms climb, thus replicating that high rpm NA motor feel (not that the S55 is really lacking much in stock form although, ideally, it would pull a little harder up top).

Yeah, I don't understand where people think the F80 can't put power down, it puts the power down really well for having this much torque. I've had cars with not nearly this level of power that had a much more difficult time with traction.

Even with BM3 Stage 1 and nearly 500 wheel torque, traction control fully off, on MP4S tires in stock sizing, I could floor it in 1st and it will spin but once I grab 2nd, it spins a little then dead hooks and shoots off like a rocket straight as an arrow. I attribute a lot of that to the amazing rear DIFF.

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by Richbot

The S55 sounds broken on startup and great at WOT/driven aggressively/when warm/etc. If you can stomach the S54, or think any BMW I-6 sounds "great", you ought to be able to at least live with the S55 in real life

Curious how the S55 "linear" tunes impact heat soak on track? Seems like you'd just be asking for trouble to make the turbos huff and puff at high rpm instead of pushing a lot of boost at low rpm and just short-shifting at 6500?

Haha, yep, agreed on the startup - it does sound bad.... but that only lasts for about 30 seconds.

As for linear tunes - they actually don't make any/much more power than the typical Stage1 tunes up top.... it's just that they don't produce the HUGE midrange hit which can create traction problems.

So - the peak HP is about the same as a Stage1 tune but the midrange is unchanged, giving the sensation of ever increasing *pull* like a high rpm NA motor even though, as stated, coming from the S54 and S65, the stock S55 ZCP tune pulls pretty damn hard to 7k - I have only a slight desire for it to pull more up top - in fact, it more or less feels like an S54 in that the last 1000rpm or so are mostly flat.

Great question/thought, though. That said, the S55 seems to have a stout cooling system, even modded.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Seriously. 295~305/30/18 is all you need to put down that torque. Drop torque slightly and give us 8000 rpm and we are all happy.

I saw ZFat on M140i refusing to downshift after 3 gymkhana runs, and that tranny is supposed to be good; I was actually very surprised when I tried to raise shift speed on F90 M5 test drive to see it already maxed out to three bars. Since the tranny can only rev to approx 7200 rpm due to oil foaming, it hesitates on downshifts while braking in fear of revving near redline and drop the tranny on the road.

S58, similar to S63 on F90, will get reduced rpm to around 7200 rpm if coupled with ZFat and more torque at low rpm so you can show your buddies how manly your car is. It will definitely feel like premature ejaculation at the higher rev with no additional pull, yet BMW M will still market it as "high revving engine" just like they did with M8 prototype...

Well honestly, from years or reading BMW forums people are getting what they asked for.
People wanted torque! Hello turboshit engine.
People complain about mileage? Hello 8sp with massive gear spread
People want awd because they can't drive to save their lives? Hello M xdrive!

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

It sounds pretty good, actually, from inside the cabin. Stop listening to youtube videos of base-car drive by's. A ZCP car and/or a base car with a carefully selected muffler sounds pretty good. S65 good? Heck no, but there's a WIDE chasm between "sound like crap" and "sounding like an S65".
).

Youtube? Come on Eric! You're killing me!
i have 500 miles and a couple track days in the GTS and multiple days in M2/3/4s. Including the ZCP.

I am not particularly traumatized with the sound. I mean, I think all turbo engines sound like crap whether it's a AMG, M, 911 Turbo, McLaren, etc.

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Youtube? Come on Eric! You're killing me!
i have 500 miles and a couple track days in the GTS and multiple days in M2/3/4s. Including the ZCP.

I am not particularly traumatized with the sound. I mean, I think all turbo engines sound like crap whether it's a AMG, M, 911 Turbo, McLaren, etc.

Haha, yes.... but you're not inside the car.

That's all that matters.

What people find most offensive, myself included, is the farting sounds during boost blow-off. This is most pronounced in DCT cars but still present to some degree in 6MT cars.

But I am telling you right now that from behind the wheel the ZCP sounds pretty damn good - it is simply a moot point and carrying on and on and on about it is really quite silly - not directed at you, just that the single most common source of F80 shit talking is how it sounds - there is SO much more to this car. This is akin to the E46 M3 which sounds pretty shitty from outside the car (raspy/tiny/bees) but quite visceral from inside.

I would agree, though, that in general turbo motors don't sound as good as NA motors. But time marches on and 'sound' is only one factor in the overall equation. As longs as it's "good enough" it shouldn't be an issue.

Finally - I personally can't stand how the E9XM sounds with exhaust - it sounds like a wannabe muscle car which it most certainly is not - it is the quintessential V8 powered anti-musclecar. The best sound an S65 makes is its induction noises above 6k rpm with a stock exhaust. That's what you call thrilling from inside the cabin.... oh my. The F80 could never, ever, ever... in a million years, compete with that.

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by M3Post

^ This is correct IMO. The M2 Competition is the real and true "M" car of today. Even a used M2 or E92 M3 comes much closer to what "M" is all about IMO.

So let me get this straight - the M2C, which borrows all of the running gear/technology from the M3/4... same diff/steering/suspension/bracing/brakes/detuned motor (but doesn't get the pimp-daddy CF roof) is the real M and somehow the F80 M3 isn't?

They are the same weight.
They are the same height.
They are within an inch of the same width.
The M3 is 9" longer.

So, essentially what you're saying, is that the watered down version is the real M car simply because it's shorter. In other words, the only characteristic that defines a car, to you, is it's length.

Hilarious.

Note - I'm not taking anything away from the M2C... I'm sure it's a freakin' HOOT, might even be the best... just illustrating how ridiculous you sound. Yes, we all wish that M cars weren't always getting bigger... I get it... but a single dimensional difference isn't what makes a "real M". Let's get serious here.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Well honestly, from years or reading BMW forums people are getting what they asked for.
People wanted torque! Hello turboshit engine.
People complain about mileage? Hello 8sp with massive gear spread
People want awd because they can't drive to save their lives? Hello M xdrive!

I don't remember asking for any of those things.

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by M3Post

Bro, define polar moment of inertia.

The E92 M3 is a good 6-7" longer than the M2C.... using your logic the E92 M3 is for sure NOT a real M car