Track forum general chit chat.

[roastbeef]

Holy crap, I forgot I did manage to upload a vid.

First lap after warm-up is the 1:34:3

[roastbeef]

Picked up a set of these bad boys to help with my lip install. They look like a handy tool to have around as well.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by dab_of_oppo

Question for those who know better than me:

I'm hearing that the m3 will be in D-Street (autocross) next season and I'm looking at being competitive. I'm looking for some really good shocks and anti-sway bars as this is basically all DStreet will allow. I've read the Dinan bar is a good choice, but as far as just shocks I don't really know where to start looking. I have a buddy that swears by Vorshlag, and I've done some research, but wanted to know if anybody here is running a setup like I'm thinking (stock springs with really nice struts and a good bar)

Thanks in advance!

what are the rules for D street? i'm not familiar.

i have ground control adjustable camber plates. i inspected them before installation and they appeared to be of really good quality. i don't know if there is a superior brand, but i couldn't imagine how something could be better.
i don't think many people run aftermarket struts, but a lot of people swap springs. i'm tracking with oem edc suspension and it isn't bad. if you're doing autocross, oem stuff will probably be fine with a set of springs.
i'm also on the oem swaybar, but i think i may upgrade to the dinan front bar in the future.

[Jive]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

what are the rules for D street? i'm not familiar.

i have ground control adjustable camber plates. i inspected them before installation and they appeared to be of really good quality. i don't know if there is a superior brand, but i couldn't imagine how something could be better.
i don't think many people run aftermarket struts, but a lot of people swap springs. i'm tracking with oem edc suspension and it isn't bad. if you're doing autocross, oem stuff will probably be fine with a set of springs.
i'm also on the oem swaybar, but i think i may upgrade to the dinan front bar in the future.

Have you driven a coilover car extensively at the track? Wondering how it compares as you seem pretty contempt with the camber plates currently.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by Jive

Have you driven a coilover car extensively at the track? Wondering how it compares as you seem pretty contempt with the camber plates currently.

i'm piecing the car together part by part mostly because i can't afford to do what i want to do all at once. but- i am really enjoying adding a part here and there and feeling the difference that single part makes on the track. this makes tracking the car as i'm building it a bit more interesting and exciting as a developing driver.

i'm getting to the point where the oem suspension isn't keeping up with what i'm asking to do. don't get me wrong, i still have a lot of work to do to improve my driving skill, but there are some bumps and transitions that i'm comfortable with that the oem suspension doesn't seem to like (bumps and imperfections on aging track surfaces).

so far i have front tension arm monoballs (fall line)
solid subframe and derlin diff mounts
ground control camber plates (-3)
cusco rear body brace (it replaces oem brackets and has a crossbar to tie them together)

thats it for suspension right now. all of that enhances the suspension feel of the car. it feels very solid and precise, i love it. however, it also forces the suspension to work harder, which exposes the weak points in the oem suspension like valving. weight transitions become much better, but bumps become bumpier. on a track like laguna seca, i can run my edc on the firmest setting. on tracks like big willow, i experimented with edc on comfort and knocked significant time off my pr.
biggest change in the feel of the car so far (besides brakes, but thats a different topic) has been the solid sub/diff bushings. i've been smashing my last pr's by a few seconds since i had them done.
my goal is to get coilovers and smash more. i want to get under 1:30 at big willow with the stock motor.

[Jive]

Thx for the detailed response. Its nice to hear you can take the stock suspension pretty far with minor upgrades. When i have the ability to track on a regular basis, i will eventually build the car into a track star. In a fashion similar to yours and dogbone, it'll be one piece at a time. The parallel journey of honing your own skills whilst learning the limits of the car in stock form is very appealing.

[roastbeef]

this method has been very rewarding. my ap brakes have been my favorite mod on the car so far. i got to stop worrying about the brakes not being there and it eliminated the variable stopping distances (and the stress that comes with it). this helped be become a better driver because it eliminated any doubt or excuses if i screwed up. i couldn't blame it on the brakes- it was all me.
everything else on the car might not be ideal, but i don't think anything else has variables like brakes. the suspension is the same every time, even if it kinda sucks.

[dabootski]

Originally Posted by dab_of_oppo

Question for those who know better than me:

I'm hearing that the m3 will be in D-Street (autocross) next season and I'm looking at being competitive. I'm looking for some really good shocks and anti-sway bars as this is basically all DStreet will allow. I've read the Dinan bar is a good choice, but as far as just shocks I don't really know where to start looking. I have a buddy that swears by Vorshlag, and I've done some research, but wanted to know if anybody here is running a setup like I'm thinking (stock springs with really nice struts and a good bar)

Thanks in advance!

I haven't heard anything about this move to D-Street and would be shocked if it were actually true. The car is already one of the cars-to-have in F Street and moving it to D-Street would essentially be demoting it to a slower class. The latest SCCA Fast Track states that they're recommending the E9X non-M3 and non-turbo cars get moved to D-Street, guessing that's where this misinformation is stemming from.

As far as prepping your M3 for Solo F-Street class goes, I'd highly recommend just slapping on a new set of sticky street tires (Bridgestone RE-71R or BFG Rivals), getting an alignment (max negative front camber!), and driving it as-is. The stock shocks are more than capable of getting you to the top of local or national standings, especially w/EDC. In fact, the 2015 F Street National Champ was running the stock EDC shocks. The adjustable Dinan sway bar is something to consider as you start pushing the car harder. However, I wouldn't say it's an absolute must-have.

Far and away the most important change to make to the stock setup is a set of competitive street tires. You may also want to consider going down to 18in wheels if you haven't already. They'll save you some weight and open up more tire sizing options.

There's a ton of autocross prep information in this thread, would highly recommend reading thru it if you haven't already http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...981788&page=23

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

biggest change in the feel of the car so far (besides brakes, but thats a different topic) has been the solid sub/diff bushings. i've been smashing my last pr's by a few seconds since i had them done.

(From my experiences, I would argue that your faster lap times are coming from all the driving you're doing.....not subframe bushings. I did subframe bushings in January. I didn't pick up much/if any time from them. I bet if you didn't do any more mods to the car for the next 6 months, you would still keep getting faster and faster. There is NO substitute for seat time. Give yourself the credit for becoming a better driver. The subframe bushings are not giving you 3 seconds.)

[Sapper_M3]

Originally Posted by Kong Sheng Han

Thanks for the offer. I'm also busy this week (ochem exam on Thurs ), but I should be available for a few hours Friday evening and likely all day Saturday. I might be busy on Sunday. I'll PM you when I get a chance.

What I was thinking when I typed "complete noobs" was that I think some people may not have the etiquette to move out of the way of a faster car, block a faster car, force people off the track, etc (I also understand that this happens with pros, too). It's good to have some feedback from you, as I have no idea what I'd expect in my first race. I believe I've done 11 track days FYI, so I'm not that experienced, and I don't think my driving is good enough. But I would like to enter a race within 2.5 years because I probably won't have time to do anything for 8 years after that due to med school and residency. Racing with little track time should be a humbling experience and a great learning tool. I'll leave my ego at home; I'd probably be pretty scared for the first few minutes of my stint.

I realized that making a team with friends won't work and would be too expensive, so I'm going to join a team. I know Winding Road Racing was at the Chumpcar race at COTA this year, so I'll ask them if they'll be racing next year too and if I can drive with them. The friend who has access to a SM is an instructor for NASA and does WRL enduros with the car. At the moment his team has three drivers, and I could be their fourth driver. I'll rent a racing suit and shoes and buy any other gear I'll need if I do end up racing with anyone.

I do question if I am fit for racing due to me being overly precautious about my spacing around other cars. In this video, at 2:30 I gave a car a point by and at that point, I thought I didn't have enough room to turn in and that I was kinda forced off track. I'm sure most people would've tucked in behind the car. I do tuck in close to a car that passes me, but "close" is to my standards. At 6:30, 10:30, and 11:40, I take a pass, and you can see how far out I get to create large spacing between my car and the other car. I doubt this is possible, or even appropriate, in W2W racing. At 13:10, I point someone by, and you can see how close he is to my car as he drives past. Passes like this make me very uncomfortable. I also don't get on people's asses as much as I have seen other drivers do when I ride with them. I think the closest I get is maybe a car length (I have bad depth perception). 2:10 in the second video is an example, although it does look like I'm more than a car length away.

Edit: You can see how close I'll get at 1:12.

Ah O-Chem, I know the pain; I did my undergrad work in Chemical Engineering. I hope everything turned out well for you.

First, I'll say that very few people are "unfit" for racing, although an individual may need more HPDEs, track days, car control work, etc. before being ready to safely (and enjoyably) participate in W2W racing.

Watching a few more of your videos, I still don't discourage you from getting into W2W, but you need to be honest with yourself in your assessment of your skills and also evaluate whether or not you'll have FUN doing W2W racing. If, at this point in your driving progression, you'll just be nervous and miserable and overwhelmed in a W2W race, maybe you wait. On the other hand, at some point you need to dive in if you believe you'll enjoy W2W racing, so some of this discomfort and uneasiness has to happen at some point regardless.

In the next few paragraphs, I'll break down a few points of discussion for you to think about: 1) Car Control, 2) Your Concerns about "Spacing" Around Cars, 3) Your Concerns about Blocking, Being Forced Off Track, 4) W2W Racing vs HPDE/Track Day Lapping

1) Car Control

I will say that, after watching your videos, your car control ability seems to be a fair bit below what I'd want from a guest driver on my team. Don't be discouraged, though, as this sort of thing comes from additional seat time at the limit during HPDEs, track days, etc. Keep approaching the limits of grip as you drive non-competitive events, and you'll gain the experience you need very quickly. This is a good time to consider quantity vs quality of seat time too, because a person can drive 20-30 track days with electronic nannies (traction control, stability control) engaged and never begin to understand real traction limits or how to manage exceeding these limits (the answer is not "learn never to exceed these limits" because occasionally it will happen, and we'd prefer for you not to careen into another vehicle or into a barrier). At the same time, a person can also drive 20-30 track days with electronic nannies OFF and still never learn anything about real traction limits or managing them if the driver nervously stays well below the limits. To develop good car control, you need to explore the limits of traction and learn how to manage situations where you exceed these limits (as you improve, you'll find yourself in fewer and fewer instances of far exceeding these limits as you begin to FEEL the traction and learn to stay at max grip with the least amount of unnecessary heat generation in the tires; if anything, you'll make small corrections in the car that can barely be observed outside the car). If you're really just beginning to learn car control, time on a wet skid pad can also be very informative, but--even doing this--you still need time on an actual road course managing understeer and oversteer at speed to develop legitimate road course car control.

Competent car control is so important to W2W racing because, unlike HPDE or open track day lapping, you spend a significant portion of your time during a race driving "off-line." In fact, particularly in endurance racing where the "marbles" develop over time, the "line" is something that changes over the course of the race even if you could magically remove all other cars for a flying lap! The line a car takes becomes much more dictated by where a car has the best traction on the track. With that said, in these races, there are cars racing everywhere on the track, so "marbles" aside, you can't stay on your "flying lap" racing line all the time because that would likely leave you behind the car ahead for the rest of the race. So, you need to race off-line wherever you can safely move to pass your opponent. Without good car control, you'll never be able to safely AND quickly pass off-line (people can often drive safely by over-slowing but then they'll be slow, and people can enter a pass quickly but not have the car control to be safe).

As an aside, though, I'll say it's interesting that amazing car control is really just the beginning of being fast (either in time trials--which are much more like open lapping--or in W2W racing). When I was really working on developing as a driver a few years ago, I always thought of car control as being the end state. If I could just get to the point where I could drive as hard as I wanted while keeping the car pointed in the right direction, I'd be unstoppable! As my racing progressed, though, I've realized that even with excellent car control--always keeping the car going in the right direction, subconsciously managing understeer and oversteer without any visible drama--you can be slow. Certainly not as slow as someone driving well below the limit, but you can be much slower than a good driver who can drive in the region of maximum grip with the least amount of unnecessary heat generated in the tires. So, for what it's worth, good car control is one of the fundamentals of being fast on track. You need to have it, but even with it, you won't necessarily find yourself as fast as a better, more experienced driver.

2) Your Concerns about "Spacing" Around Cars

If you really want to get into W2W racing, I think you'll learn to become comfortable with how close cars race, but this is something to think about: W2W racing is, as the name suggests, often wheel to wheel. All of the major budget endurance series are "no-contact" series, but especially in Chumpcar, a small amount of car to car contact is common and acceptable. If you're being dangerous, playing bumper cars, and physically pushing people off track, you'll get black flagged and the Chief Steward will decide what to do with you. On the other hand, with cars all packed together such as at race start (think a car virtually touching your front bumper, a car virtually touching your rear bumper, a car that you could touch to your left if not for your window net, and a car to your right who is probably watching to make sure he doesn't knock off your side-view mirror) or such as when going 2 or 3 cars wide in a turn, a little bit of touching is expected. If you aren't comfortable passing with these small tolerances (a car many only leave you a "fair" 1 car length from the dirt as you attempt to pass), you're not likely to do much more than get passed in nerve-wracking fashion (because they WILL pass you with whatever space is available) for an entire race.

3) Your Concerns about Blocking, Being Forced Off Track

Once you start racing W2W, you'll realize this isn't a concern. For one thing, passing in W2W racing isn't a simple courtesy "guaranteed" thing when a car appears to be faster than another car. If you're actually faster than the guy in front of you, pass him legally! Blocking (exact rules vary from series to series even in pro-racing, but it's a very "I know it when I see it" type thing where a driver does something unsportmanlike to prevent an overtaking car from overtaking; making two defensive moves on a straight is one example) is very rarely a problem. Slow drivers rarely "block" a clearly faster car (often in a faster class of car), but they may defend their position legally to avoid being passed in a way that compromises future corners and gets them passed by other cars behind that are in the same class. When race leaders are lapping slower cars (which is happening all the time over an 7,8,12,16,24-hour race), a slower car may--with good hand signals, eye contact, etc--move off-line to help these race-leading cars pass. This is a good courtesy for a car that you clearly aren't "competing" against either based on different classes or simply being uncompetitive with your car. In general, though, get used to the idea that the person you're passing DOESN'T want to be passed by you. This is much of the fun of racing--setting up and executing the pass against an opponent who would like to stay ahead!

4) W2W Racing vs HPDE/Track Day Lapping

I've said this before, but it's extremely important: Except for the incredibly small percentage of us in the world who do (or will) drive professionally, this is about having FUN! Make choices about how you intend to spend your time and money in the future based on having fun. I love W2W racing, but it isn't a necessary "progression" from HPDE/track day lapping. HPDEs and track-day lapping are a completely legitimate end-state in and of themselves.

With that said, HPDEs/track days and W2W racing are not equivalent. If your goal in going W2W racing is to get more seat time, get more seat time for time available, or get more seat time for cost, don't do it. None of these are good reasons because W2W racing isn't like HPDEs or track days. W2W racing is fun for many people, but it's fun in a very different way than HPDEs/track days. You likely won't be setting your fast lap on a track (I usually end up doing this on a test-and-tune day, unless I get incredibly lucky to draft off a car that is JUST the right amount faster down a track's longest straight), you won't be in a good position to improve your car control without endangering yourself or other cars, and it's certainly not a safe place to learn a new track. If you decide to race W2W, it really needs to be about wanting to have fun from competition. (Furthermore, once you work out the costs and the hassle, you're not likely to get more seat time for time available or for cost compared to many of the cheap open lapping days you can find for licensed--or even just well known advanced--drivers.)

With all the above in mind, I'm absolutely not discouraging you from entering into the hobby of W2W racing. In fact, I encourage it! (We need more drivers and more teams throughout the country to keep the sport alive!) I just hope that some of my input can help you make an informed decision about 1) whether or not you even want to do W2W racing, and 2) whether you're ready to start now.

[Sapper_M3]

...to everyone who doesn't care about my thoughts, opinions on W2W racing, I apologize for the novel above. I figured it might be helpful to someone else considering getting into one of the several Budget Endurance Racing series available today.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by dogbone

(From my experiences, I would argue that your faster lap times are coming from all the driving you're doing.....not subframe bushings. I did subframe bushings in January. I didn't pick up much/if any time from them. I bet if you didn't do any more mods to the car for the next 6 months, you would still keep getting faster and faster. There is NO substitute for seat time. Give yourself the credit for becoming a better driver. The subframe bushings are not giving you 3 seconds.)

thanks, i am getting better as a driver. it helps that this car is just incredible, and easy to drive. i feel like the mods i have done have not only enhanced performance, but made the car easier to drive.

i got some instruction when i did an open track day with HPDU at auto club earlier this month. i was assigned to a younger guy named john henry capestro-dubets. i really enjoyed his instruction. he didn't ride with me, but would review my gopro videos after my sessions and was able to give good instruction and insight just based off of that. what was most beneficial, was he critiqued me on things that i could work on at any track. things we worked on were hand position, brake application including smoother brake release, and smoother movements overall. this was all stuff i had an idea about, but hadn't been critiqued in detail before. we also discussed looking farther down the track than i had been. it was hard to apply it all at one time, but i have been working at it, and the times reflect that. i'd probably agree that the sub/diff bushings are not going to automatically drop 2-3 seconds, but they certainly help as i'm becoming more and more confident in the car.

[redpriest]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

Something happen with the control arms or are they just getting old?
Big willow still scares me too. The morning jitters I get from that course are no joke.

Try running with edc on comfort. You'll dig it.

Rubber bushings are cracked in the lower control arms so under braking, I'm getting some unwanted dynamic toe change. Looking to get either Dinan monoballs, or these:

http://www.bimmerworld.com/Suspensio...m-Bearing.html

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by redpriest

Rubber bushings are cracked in the lower control arms so under braking, I'm getting some unwanted dynamic toe change. Looking to get either Dinan monoballs, or these:

http://www.bimmerworld.com/Suspensio...m-Bearing.html

IND does a pretty decent black friday sale, i believe (15% off). i picked up my fall line monoballs for about $400 shipped. i'm not sure if i could tell the difference between the fall line and those bimmerworld precision bearings, but i liked how "solid" they looked and felt. maybe i'm a sucker for purdy parts.

they are similar to the dinan design, but malek had to do some minor buffing to press them in properly. the overall fit and finish was very nice though.

did you replace your motor mounts yet? what did you go with?

[Vox Populi]

Kong- do a race school first. I'd strongly suggest a CCA school (as that's the one I've done and my only experience).

They'll teach you - despite your natural instinct - that close is safe. Think about it - when you're way off the side passing a car, they can't see you. You're out of their mirrors. To stay in their vision, stay close.

The race school also does a ton of VERY close driving exercises. The most stressful is undoubtedly their 3 wide exercise. Pair up with two other drivers and navigate the entire track three wide (nose to nose; tail to tail). It's stressful and uncomfortable, but that's the point.

good luck.

Edit: not sure if you can see this since my IG is private, but here's a video from 'practice starts' at the race school. Learn to enjoy being close!

[dab_of_oppo]

Originally Posted by jasonbucki

I haven't heard anything about this move to D-Street and would be shocked if it were actually true. The car is already one of the cars-to-have in F Street and moving it to D-Street would essentially be demoting it to a slower class. The latest SCCA Fast Track states that they're recommending the E9X non-M3 and non-turbo cars get moved to D-Street, guessing that's where this misinformation is stemming from.

As far as prepping your M3 for Solo F-Street class goes, I'd highly recommend just slapping on a new set of sticky street tires (Bridgestone RE-71R or BFG Rivals), getting an alignment (max negative front camber!), and driving it as-is. The stock shocks are more than capable of getting you to the top of local or national standings, especially w/EDC. In fact, the 2015 F Street National Champ was running the stock EDC shocks. The adjustable Dinan sway bar is something to consider as you start pushing the car harder. However, I wouldn't say it's an absolute must-have.

Far and away the most important change to make to the stock setup is a set of competitive street tires. You may also want to consider going down to 18in wheels if you haven't already. They'll save you some weight and open up more tire sizing options.

There's a ton of autocross prep information in this thread, would highly recommend reading thru it if you haven't already http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...981788&page=23

Thank you so much for the info! I'll have a read through the link you provided. Being a 2008, am I hooped for rim sizes or can i switch everything to Comp. Pkg and run 9 inch front and 10inch rears?

[Richbot]

One of the best takeaways from Carroll Smith's books:

Your competition car should be easier and more comfortable to drive at the limit than your street car

[dab_of_oppo]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

what are the rules for D street? i'm not familiar.

i have ground control adjustable camber plates. i inspected them before installation and they appeared to be of really good quality. i don't know if there is a superior brand, but i couldn't imagine how something could be better.
i don't think many people run aftermarket struts, but a lot of people swap springs. i'm tracking with oem edc suspension and it isn't bad. if you're doing autocross, oem stuff will probably be fine with a set of springs.
i'm also on the oem swaybar, but i think i may upgrade to the dinan front bar in the future.

F/D Street - Only shocks allowed to be modified not the springs or perches. No other suspension mods outside of adjusting though the stock range. Sway bars are allowed and stock rim widths only(trying to figure out how to 'convert' to Comp.Pkg so i can run 1/2 inch wider rims front and back

[Richbot]

Swaybars allowed, but only at one end.

You can also fiddle with offset, +- 6.25mm from stock, and you can do a catback exhaust, an air filter, and some other minor things. But that's the important stuff. You have to use the stock wheel widths, but can now use +-1" diameter from stock, which was a bit of a pandora's box IMO, but whatever, it is what it is now. For instance, I think the performance difference between a ZCP and non-ZCP car was negligible under the old R-comp F-Stock rules because ZCP cars were stuck with 19's, and so were limited to narrower tires that would fit on the 19's and while the base cars had narrower wheels, they had way more good options in teh 18" Hoosier. But now that you can drop down to an 18x9 and 18x10, it's clear the spring difference and the wheel width advantage make a ZCP car the car to have.

Originally Posted by dab_of_oppo

Thank you so much for the info! I'll have a read through the link you provided. Being a 2008, am I hooped for rim sizes or can i switch everything to Comp. Pkg and run 9 inch front and 10inch rears?

No you cannot.

You can do a package conversion if you have a car of the same model year as the year the package was offered, so for instance if you had a 2011 non-ZCP you could, if you updated to EDC and/or installed the ZCP EDC maps on a car that already has EDC, and/or intstalled aftermarket struts and shocks deleting the eDC feature entirely, updated to ZCP MDM/DSC programming, and installed the springs, you could in theory use the 9's and 10's.

But '08-10 model year M3's cannot update to ZCP legally no matter what. So you get to use 8.5's and 9.5's.

[admranger]

BMW CCA race school was good when I went to it a long time ago. If Judy Ray is part of the instructor corps for the race school down in Austin, you'll have a great learning experience. She's fantastic!

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by admranger

BMW CCA race school was good when I went to it a long time ago. If Judy Ray is part of the instructor corps for the race school down in Austin, you'll have a great learning experience. She's fantastic!

judy ray took me on my first M test drive in a 2011 m3. we spent some time talking about cars when i was picking something up for my e46 325ci. when she found that i hadn't driven an m car, she told me, "we need to change that." i took a drive and was hooked. unfortunately, i wasn't able to buy from her because i wasn't ready at the time. from what i understand, she moved to texas a few years back. maybe some day, i'll be fortunate enough to get some instruction from her. very nice lady.

[admranger]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

judy ray took me on my first M test drive in a 2011 m3. we spent some time talking about cars when i was picking something up for my e46 325ci. when she found that i hadn't driven an m car, she told me, "we need to change that." i took a drive and was hooked. unfortunately, i wasn't able to buy from her because i wasn't ready at the time. from what i understand, she moved to texas a few years back. maybe some day, i'll be fortunate enough to get some instruction from her. very nice lady.

She knows her way around a race track and she knows race craft. Excellent instructor.