BE BackOrder...RIDICULOUS!! Next best Recommendations please?

[pbonsalb]

The companies making the bearings are making precision parts. That is what they do. Their quality control is good and their parts are made to high tolerances. The supposed problem with the BMW rod bearings is that BMW asked clevite (who also makes bearings for vac and be) to make them to a pretty tight specification. Tiny Variations in cranks, rods, and even the bearings themselves can stack up to make the clearance even more on the tight side. Any of the extra clearance bearings will address that.

The only risk is with using BMW bearings or other bearings that have similar clearance (be and acl will sell you stock clearance bearings if you want them). But you can also consider the fact that 7-12 years after production, more M3s are still driving on stock BMW bearings than on any fancy coated or treated or extra clearance bearing. You can also consider the fact that most experts recommend replacing the rod bearings at regular intervals of 75-100k on another high revving bmw motor, the S54, regardless of the fanciness or precision of the replacement bearings the owner installed.

I replaced my bearings in 2014, as soon as the warranty ran out. And I will replace them again in the next year or two. There is no evidence yet that convinces me that the most expensive aftermarket bearing will last forever in these motors. I hope it does. We have seen only a few aftermarket bearings come back out for inspection so far. A few year ago Malek showed a set of vac that looked great at 40k if I recall correctly, and we have seen a couple of BE, maybe one with 25k and one with 40k, but again I am not certain of the miles, that looked good. Time will tell, but it may be a few more years before we have a dozen or so examples to study.

[IamFODI]

Originally Posted by simpleM3

What's really baffling is how BMW hasn't addressed the clearance issue. Given the severity of having the bearing fail on you, I can't wrap my head around the idea that the bearings issue is this prevalent in the S65 motor, yet their fix only addressed the coating or whatever it was they did from 2011 on. Their the geniuses right? Why not address it? or did they and has that been overshadowed by the aftermarket?

I had the same questions and have yet to come across a real answer. I have my own hypotheses but have basically resigned myself to never finding out for sure. BMW and its suppliers have no incentive to clear the air, and it's really difficult to have a reasonable and informed discussion for obvious reasons.

When I had my rod bearings swapped preventatively, I went with updated OE BMW bearings and bolts -- not because I positively believe they're better than anything else, but because I had a reasonable idea of what I'd be in for with them (i.e. should probably replace them after another 60k-80k miles out of an abundance of caution, but engine will most likely be fine otherwise) whereas the picture with any aftermarket option seemed inconclusive due to insufficient data.

Since then, there have been more miles on aftermarket bearings and a few more teardowns. Still no slam-dunk either way, but at least the initial signs continue to be encouraging. If I had to do it again today... I'd still probably go OE for the same basic reasons, but it'd be a closer call.

If I had to go aftermarket, my first choice would probably be BE, followed by VAC and ACL. I would prefer BE for a lot of the same reasons as SYT_Shadow gave, and I don't think I'd be worried about driving my car for a couple more months while they came back in stock. At the same time, I wouldn't argue that you'd be a fool for going VAC or ACL because, as I think you suggested, it's hugely unlikely that the difference between BE and them will be big enough to mean anything for most people most of the time. Based on SYT_Shadow's feedback about VAC, I'd want my shop to be extremely vigilant for potential quality issues -- though I'd demand that of any shop I'd trust with my S65's guts anyway.

FWIW.

[amrazM]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

In the end, opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one. Most are completely worthless. Hell, it's 2020 and people are still sleeving S65s! So best of luck

lmao

[Space Fox]

I don't know if I'm crazy or missing something but I just had my bearings replaced yesterday. We ordered the BE Bearing replacement kit from ECS and it got here to Tampa in four days. https://www.ecstuning.com/b-assemble...2478380887kt6/

Also, as to the 'updated' OE bearings, these are mine out of my 2012 e92 w/ 46k miles on them. You be the judge.

[tdott]

I support companies that I can stand behind. For all the reasons SYT_Shadow mentioned, BE has done more and provided more info and anyone else on the subject, they have a quality product with better QA than others.

VAC has some shady business practices I just cannot stand behind, or support.
ACL I feel is an inferior product with no coating and non-ideal clearance, but it is a decent option. As SYT_Shadow also said, I'd prefer to wait and do it right the first time.

Originally Posted by simpleM3

What's really baffling is how BMW hasn't addressed the clearance issue. Given the severity of having the bearing fail on you, I can't wrap my head around the idea that the bearings issue is this prevalent in the S65 motor, yet their fix only addressed the coating or whatever it was they did from 2011 on. Their the geniuses right? Why not address it? or did they and has that been overshadowed by the aftermarket? Anyhow, my questions are rhetorical. Its a f-ing conspiracy

It's simple, BMW bean counters figured out it was less costly to fix the ones that blow than issue a recall. They give zero fs after the motor is out of warranty and prefer you buy a new car.

If you think BMW cares about what happens after warranty is over, you are fooling yourselves.

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

You can also consider the fact that most experts recommend replacing the rod bearings at regular intervals of 75-100k on another high revving bmw motor, the S54, regardless of the fanciness or precision of the replacement bearings the owner installed.

This is such strange advice. What makes the S54 and the S65/S85 different than:

Audi R8 V8 - 414HP and 7800RPM (very similar to the S65)
Audi R8 V10 - 518HP at 8000RPM
Ferrari F136E - 503HP at 8500RPM
Porsche GT3 - 500HP at 8250RPM
Honda AP1 - 237HP at 8300RPM
Honda B18C - 195HP at 8000RPM
Honda K20A2 - 200HP at 7400RPM
Yamaha R6 (2002) - 107RWHP at 12,500RPM - I know this is different but I have not heard about significant issues with the R6 and Yamaha has sold a boat load of them over the last 20 years.

The list of high rev, high piston speed engines can go on. To the best of my knowledge, not one of these engines recommends that you replace your rod bearings as a maintenance item.

BMW screwed up the S54/S65/S85 rotating assemblies through a poor design AND poor QA/QC. Had they matched the components, we would likely not have as many of these threads. Too bad they just did not design the crank properly.

Cheers,

[pbonsalb]

You can call the advice strange but it is the advice of shops like Lang Racing, Bimmerworld and others. I am aware of other engines that rev high; lists have been posted here for years. If you want a car with an engine that can rev high for 200,000 miles on its original bearings, don’t buy an E46 M3 or E90 M3.

Maybe there are some mechanics among us who have worked on all of the engines on your list and can explain how the S54 and S65 differ. Could be the width or thickness of the rod bearings, something to do with the rod or piston or rod to stroke ratio, the block rigidity, the crank damping, the crank rod journal size, the oil or oiling system, the fuel octane, poor tolerance on other parts, sulphur in the fuel, or maybe it is as simple as the rod bearing clearance.

I don’t know. I think Lang says the S54 rod bearings are not thick enough. Some say the S65 rod bearings (which share a journal unlike on the S54) don’t have enough side to side clearance.

Ignoring the advice because it is so strange might result in a damaged or ruined S54 or S65.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

This is such strange advice. What makes the S54 and the S65/S85 different than:

Audi R8 V8 - 414HP and 7800RPM (very similar to the S65)
Audi R8 V10 - 518HP at 8000RPM
Ferrari F136E - 503HP at 8500RPM
Porsche GT3 - 500HP at 8250RPM
Honda AP1 - 237HP at 8300RPM
Honda B18C - 195HP at 8000RPM
Honda K20A2 - 200HP at 7400RPM
Yamaha R6 (2002) - 107RWHP at 12,500RPM - I know this is different but I have not heard about significant issues with the R6 and Yamaha has sold a boat load of them over the last 20 years.

The list of high rev, high piston speed engines can go on. To the best of my knowledge, not one of these engines recommends that you replace your rod bearings as a maintenance item.

BMW screwed up the S54/S65/S85 rotating assemblies through a poor design AND poor QA/QC. Had they matched the components, we would likely not have as many of these threads. Too bad they just did not design the crank properly.

Cheers,

Every engine has its weak spots.

I don't expect any of those engines you listed to get to 200k miles without blowing up and plenty of them have other issues, like the DI Audi engines in your list which have the worst carbon buildup known to mankind

[amrazM]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

This is such strange advice. What makes the S54 and the S65/S85 different than:

Audi R8 V8 - 414HP and 7800RPM pull engine out for AC compressor R/R
Audi R8 V10 - 518HP at 8000RPM $11k for shocks
Ferrari F136E - 503HP at 8500RPM attached to a pos maserati
Porsche GT3 - 500HP at 8250RPM self destructs
Honda AP1 - 237HP at 8300RPM crank walks out of block
Honda B18C - 195HP at 8000RPM in a honda
Honda K20A2 - 200HP at 7400RPM in a honda



Cheers,

Answers attached, deleted the motorcycle its not relevant they all rev to the moon.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by simpleM3

I resonate with this post. I don't do hype and I feel like BE, although great I'm sure, has too much hype behind them. I'm wouldn't argue BE quality, but the question that really needs to be asked is it necessary to get BE and if so why? Similar to the coilover debate. Yes Ohlins is at the top, but do I need Ohlins if i'm mostly daily driving w/ a few spirited runs here and there, no i don't. Do I need BE on a stock motor with original OE bearings sitting at 117k miles? Doubtful!

Not familiar with ACL or VAC so ill do a little research

I mean if you're going to just drive it for another 40k miles then sell it to someone else but want to reduce risk then maybe it makes most economical sense to use some other cheaper easier to find bearings. If I couldn't get BE personally I'd probably get VAC and take it to a shop I trust to correctly measure the bearings and install or have them sent to a shop that would measure and sort them for a fee then send them back to me to have installed elsewhere.

[IamFODI]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

Maybe there are some mechanics among us who have worked on all of the engines on your list and can explain how the S54 and S65 differ. Could be the width or thickness of the rod bearings, something to do with the rod or piston or rod to stroke ratio, the block rigidity, the crank damping, the crank rod journal size, the oil or oiling system, the fuel octane, poor tolerance on other parts, sulphur in the fuel, or maybe it is as simple as the rod bearing clearance.

I haven't worked on all of those engines, I'm no substitute for a real expert, and I won't claim any unique insight, but I did try to at least start a similar conversation a while back:

Originally Posted by IamFODI

I did the same super-rough rod bearing area approximation for the F20C, and the number I got (~3800 mm^2) is much bigger than what I got for the S65 [just under 3500]. The GT3 seems to land in the same ballpark, though slightly higher. That alone might explain why those engines are easier on their rod bearings -- if they even are in the first place, which I can't say (I've heard informed people comment both ways).

Originally Posted by IamFODI

This article is kind of comparing extremes, but it shows how differences in rod shape, dimensions, and materials, combined with differences in rod/stroke ratios and piston speeds, can load different parts of the rod very differently. That doesn't say anything definite, but it does show that there's a lot going on besides all the stuff we've mentioned so far, and it suggests that the real answer might be a lot more obscure and complicated than people like us can grok.

Would be nice to have some real answers, if only for geek-out value.

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

You can call the advice strange but it is the advice of shops like Lang Racing, Bimmerworld and others. I am aware of other engines that rev high; lists have been posted here for years. If you want a car with an engine that can rev high for 200,000 miles on its original bearings, don’t buy an E46 M3 or E90 M3.

Maybe there are some mechanics among us who have worked on all of the engines on your list and can explain how the S54 and S65 differ. Could be the width or thickness of the rod bearings, something to do with the rod or piston or rod to stroke ratio, the block rigidity, the crank damping, the crank rod journal size, the oil or oiling system, the fuel octane, poor tolerance on other parts, sulphur in the fuel, or maybe it is as simple as the rod bearing clearance.

I don’t know. I think Lang says the S54 rod bearings are not thick enough. Some say the S65 rod bearings (which share a journal unlike on the S54) don’t have enough side to side clearance.

Ignoring the advice because it is so strange might result in a damaged or ruined S54 or S65.

I get where you are coming from for sure. High performance engine and all that. But if you look at some of the bearings that come out of 100K+ mile engines, they do look pretty good. I attribute that to the engine being built on the loose side of the curve. When you look at the data supplied by the engine builders who helped develop BE bearings, the loose side of the curve barely meets all major bearing manufacturer's minimum clearance guidelines of 0.001"/" for high performance engines.

It is also promising that the extra clearance bearings that have been pulled from S65 engines consistently are in excellent condition. I know it is not statistically significant yet, but it is promising.

Bottom line, I reeeeally do not want my S65 to blow up!

Enjoy the day, stay safe and keep the greasy side down.

Cheers,

[simpleM3]

Who's to say that this isn't just normal wear? Why should someone look at the pictures of those bearings and assume that what we're seeing is a "problem?"

My 2011.75 ZCP has 117k. My bearings are getting replaced next week and i'll post the condition for comparison, but I don't think the markings on your is any indication that the motor will fail. At the minimum its definitely not conclusive evidence.

Originally Posted by brantp

I don't know if I'm crazy or missing something but I just had my bearings replaced yesterday. We ordered the BE Bearing replacement kit from ECS and it got here to Tampa in four days. https://www.ecstuning.com/b-assemble...2478380887kt6/

Also, as to the 'updated' OE bearings, these are mine out of my 2012 e92 w/ 46k miles on them. You be the judge.

[simpleM3]

Bearings debate aside, somethings got to give with BE. Parts shouldn't be on back order like this, especially given that its US made. And its not about COVID19. That shit just happened. BE supply/inventory apparently has always been sh!t and especially worse late fall and into the new year. The quality and reputation of their parts doesn't mean sh!t to a potential customer who can't buy it and/or experience it due to lack of production and availability.

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by simpleM3

Who's to say that this isn't just normal wear? Why should someone look at the pictures of those bearings and assume that what we're seeing is a "problem.

If you have pulled rod bearings from other motors, you would know that what is typically seen on S65 bearings is way beyond normal wear. If you understand the layering of rod bearings and what happens after the top layer is worn, you would understand the problem. Since you are not concerned about wear, why bother changing yours? Most people have not changed theirs.

[simpleM3]

Never said I wasn't concerned. I was simply making the point that the pics themselves aren’t conclusive. Those pics and many others like it, don't tell me anything more than bearings wear out; therefore should be swapped out at some point. A point that’s been well received in the community.

I have a 117k. Some guys have less and haven't replaced theirs and some guys have more and also haven't replaced theirs. The fear of god that's put into people’s minds is WAY BLOWN out of proportion. YES, they need or should be changed at some point and probably again at a later point (depending on miles), but what people need to stop doing is exacerbating the problem. It's the COVID 19 of S65. Yes, there have been failures. There's also a thing called lemons. Shit happens!

I'd love for someone to pull some actual quantitative stats on how many S65 motors have blown or failed as result of OE bearings. I'd also love to see how many motors out there have BE bearings with more than 100k. Show me an 80k BE bearing. Why hasn't anyone enthusiastically done that yet? Until then, this topic, at least some elements of it, is purely subjective. IMO

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

If you have pulled rod bearings from other motors, you would know that what is typically seen on S65 bearings is way beyond normal wear. If you understand the layering of rod bearings and what happens after the top layer is worn, you would understand the problem. Since you are not concerned about wear, why bother changing yours? Most people have not changed theirs.

[pbonsalb]

You seem to be falling for the hype since you don’t believe there is a problem but are changing your bearings long before rod bearings should wear out on a properly designed engine. I changed mine in 2014 when the warranty ran out.

No one has the numbers of failed motors. BMW won’t share that. A small fraction of M3 owners are on this forum and have identified around 200 failures.

As far as I know, no one with replaced rod bearings of any brand has accumulated 80k on them and removed them for inspection. Maybe in a few years we will see some. There have been a few with around 40k as I recall, but only a few.

[tdott]

Originally Posted by simpleM3

I'd love for someone to pull some actual quantitative stats on how many S65 motors have blown or failed as result of OE bearings. I'd also love to see how many motors out there have BE bearings with more than 100k. Show me an 80k BE bearing. Why hasn't anyone enthusiastically done that yet? Until then, this topic, at least some elements of it, is purely subjective. IMO

Where would anyone pull those stats? Out of their ass?

[Space Fox]

Originally Posted by simpleM3

Who's to say that this isn't just normal wear? Why should someone look at the pictures of those bearings and assume that what we're seeing is a "problem?"

My 2011.75 ZCP has 117k. My bearings are getting replaced next week and i'll post the condition for comparison, but I don't think the markings on your is any indication that the motor will fail. At the minimum its definitely not conclusive evidence.

I was not claiming that these would fail but I think it's pretty clear that this type of wear is not normal for rod bearings. Look at some of the examples of BE and VAC bearings that have been pulled out after 20-40k miles and they look brand new - as hydrodynamic bearings should. I'm sure I could have gone quite a bit longer on these bearings but why risk it? I appreciate this motor too much to carelessly hope it doesn't grenade at some unknown point. It's worth the money to ensure it's continued use. Obviously you feel the same as you are having yours done. I look forward to seeing the condition of your bearings as well.

On another note - why is everyone ignoring that ECS literally has BE bearing kits in stock? I ordered a kit from their website and it arrived four days later.

[IamFODI]

Originally Posted by brantp

I appreciate this motor too much to carelessly hope it doesn't grenade at some unknown point. It's worth the money to ensure it's continued use.

Amen. Pretty sure everyone here feels the same. We're just quibbling over details.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by simpleM3

Never said I wasn't concerned. I was simply making the point that the pics themselves aren't conclusive. Those pics and many others like it, don't tell me anything more than bearings wear out; therefore should be swapped out at some point. A point that's been well received in the community.

I have a 117k. Some guys have less and haven't replaced theirs and some guys have more and also haven't replaced theirs. The fear of god that's put into people's minds is WAY BLOWN out of proportion. YES, they need or should be changed at some point and probably again at a later point (depending on miles), but what people need to stop doing is exacerbating the problem. It's the COVID 19 of S65. Yes, there have been failures. There's also a thing called lemons. Shit happens!

I'd love for someone to pull some actual quantitative stats on how many S65 motors have blown or failed as result of OE bearings. I'd also love to see how many motors out there have BE bearings with more than 100k. Show me an 80k BE bearing. Why hasn't anyone enthusiastically done that yet? Until then, this topic, at least some elements of it, is purely subjective. IMO

Out of one side of your mouth you say who can say if these bearings coming out of cars are normal or not, out of the other side of your mouth you're saying the bearings NEED to be changed. If no one can say the bearing wear is normal or not, you can't claim they NEED to be changed. Make up your mind.

All the BE bearings coming out of cars show little to no wear but no one has yet pulled out 80k BE bearings. The only other non trashed bearings I've ever seen come out of an s65 were VAC bearings.

[IamFODI]

Always found it fascinating how people respond on this topic.

I completely understand and generally agree with what simpleM3 is saying. There's enough evidence of a problem that it's reasonable to address it preemptively; at the same time, the evidence often seems overstated and the issue as a whole seems overblown. Often, not always. Overstated/overblown, not nonexistent. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

It's amazing how completely unacceptable that opinion is to so many people. Like, it's not just that people understand and reject it; they often don't even seem to get it in the first place. Someone always comes in with "you're either with us or against us". I.e., either you completely agree with everything said about how OE bearings suck and need to be replaced with aftermarket, or you think they're completely fine and never need to be touched.

I can't be the only one who feels like this is a needless forfeiture of social capital in this community. Shouldn't it be okay for some of us to have stronger or weaker opinions than others? Why get tribal over this?