Track forum general chit chat.

[k_mann]

Originally Posted by leftfootbr8king

I've run ds.uno front and 2500 rear. Worked fine. Others have done this as well so I'm not alone.

Does the higher front bite help with loading up the front tires a bit better? I've been struggling since going to kw clubsports with understeer, feels like my front end isn't "digging in" enough, wondering if higher bite in the front would help

[roastbeef]

You generally don't want higher bite pads on the rear. Most of the weight shifts forward during heavy braking and a higher bite pad in the back may trigger abs sooner because of the weight transfer.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by aututto

Does the higher front bite help with loading up the front tires a bit better? I've been struggling since going to kw clubsports with understeer, feels like my front end isn't "digging in" enough, wondering if higher bite in the front would help

What spring rates, tire sizes, arb?

[k_mann]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

What spring rates, tire sizes, arb?

Stock cs rates which are 600/685 now I think? 275 square rt615k+. Stock arb

[roastbeef]

I wasn't paying attention when I responded earlier. DsUNO's up front with ds2500's in the rear will work great.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by aututto

Stock cs rates which are 600/685 now I think? 275 square rt615k+. Stock arb

I think stock is 628/685 if you’re on the new versions. Need a lot more rear rate.

[k_mann]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

I wasn't paying attention when I responded earlier. DsUNO's up front with ds2500's in the rear will work great.

That's what left foot suggested. I would guess that would fall in line with the same characteristics as pfc11 front 08 rear

[k_mann]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

I think stock is 628/685 if you’re on the new versions. Need a lot more rear rate.

I'm guessing cause under braking a higher rear rate would help "push up" the rear end more and thus drive the front down more?

[Kelse92]

Originally Posted by aututto

Any thoughts on mixing pad compounds? My rear pfc08's still have some good life left. Was wanting to go 11 in the front. Anyone ever done this? I know normally you'd go higher bite in the rear but was curious

I don't think it matters. On my car I always liked higher front bite than rear. If there's a specific setup you like. Try it.
I always run Cobalt XR2f/XR3r on track but for autocross I'll go down to a lower friction front pad like the stoptech street or hawk hp+

[b4hand]

Originally Posted by Kelse92

for autocross I'll go down to a lower friction front pad like the stoptech street or hawk hp+

Explain please

[Redd]

Originally Posted by aututto

Does the higher front bite help with loading up the front tires a bit better? I've been struggling since going to kw clubsports with understeer, feels like my front end isn't "digging in" enough, wondering if higher bite in the front would help

How would brakes pads prevent understeer?

[k_mann]

Originally Posted by Redd

How would brakes pads prevent understeer?

My understanding is a higher torque pad is going to put the brake bias towards the front and hopefully shift more weight forward when braking

[Redd]

Originally Posted by aututto

My understanding is a higher torque pad is going to put the brake bias towards the front and hopefully shift more weight forward when braking

If you're understeering, I assume it's during some turning situation without brakes on. That's not a problem caused by brake pads. If your started encountering this after you installed Clubsports then maybe you need to tune the dampers or check your alignment.

Tapping on brakes to shift weight to the front to alleviate understeer works but not if your understeer is already terminal. If the front end is already pushing hard, loading the front tires even more can just make it worse. Torquier front pads won't help in this situation. I suggest you fix the problem at the source, which to me sounds like alignment or setup of the dampers.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by aututto

Does the higher front bite help with loading up the front tires a bit better? I've been struggling since going to kw clubsports with understeer, feels like my front end isn't "digging in" enough, wondering if higher bite in the front would help

brake pads don't cause understeer. you have a suspension or alignment issue.

Originally Posted by b4hand

Explain please

using a non-race pad will have a lower peak operating temp from the start. first press will feel better over a race pad that takes a lap or so to get to operating temperature.

[tsk94]

The only situation where a front pad with lots of bite can cause understeer is while trail braking. Otherwise it's suspension related.

[roastbeef]

i think too much front brake during cornering would cause oversteer rather than understeer, unless you're completely overworking the front tires and exceeding the maximum grip of the tires.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

i think too much front brake during cornering would cause oversteer rather than understeer, unless you're completely overworking the front tires and exceeding the maximum grip of the tires.

As a generalization: Increasing front brake bias with increase understeer under trail braking.

[roastbeef]

i'm not sure how if you're trail braking to shift weight forward with steering input.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

i'm not sure how if you're trail braking to shift weight forward with steering input.

Let's use an extreme example where you move the brake bias a large amount forward. Think race pad up front, street pad in the rear.

The front axle now bears the majority of the braking duty. Overall your braking efficiency decrease as the front is now doing the majority of the deceleration. The front tires are being worked more, as they are now being worked harder to try and slow down the car at the same rate. The tires can only do so much. You're asking them to do more work while braking and if you introduce steering angle into it something has to give. The front axle is the one being overworked, not the rear. So understeer ensues.

Give it a try sometime to see for yourself if you don't believe me (:

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by tsk94

Let's use an extreme example where you move the brake bias a large amount forward. Think race pad up front, street pad in the rear.

The front axle now bears the majority of the braking duty. Overall your braking efficiency decrease as the front is now doing the majority of the deceleration. The front tires are being worked more, as they are now being worked harder to try and slow down the car at the same rate. The tires can only do so much. You're asking them to do more work while braking and if you introduce steering angle into it something has to give. The front axle is the one being overworked, not the rear. So understeer ensues.

Give it a try sometime to see for yourself if you don't believe me (:

i see the point you're trying to argue. if you're overwhelming the front grip levels, i'd agree- understeer. but front brake bias and a high bite, high torque pad up front doesn't cause understeer. we all have front brake bias. everyone i know of consciously runs a more aggressive pad up front.
lets take it off the deep end and imagine a car with no rear brakes at all. at turn-in, with proper trail braking, they car would want to oversteer. right?

i don't think we're actually disagreeing about anything as long as front grip isn't exceeded though too much input from the driver.

[dparm]

This feels like one of those examples of "no one is doing X because it is known to be a bad idea". We just had an argument about this with regards to tire sizes.

Anyway, yeah, you can mix compounds. If you run a stronger pad in the rear, you're gonna have a bad time.

[Ximian]

Originally Posted by aututto

Any thoughts on mixing pad compounds? My rear pfc08's still have some good life left. Was wanting to go 11 in the front. Anyone ever done this? I know normally you'd go higher bite in the rear but was curious

Yes, it's totally fine. CarboTech XP20 front/PFC 11 rear, no issues apart from popping my eyes out under braking.