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      05-23-2018, 03:06 PM   #1
m3jala
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Community based bearing warranty?

I have zero understanding right now on how to actually make something like this happen, but hear me out.

A car like the m3 is meant to be enjoyed. Hype or not, clearly the rod bearing and mains issues out there is probably something that is in the back of the mind of many out there.

No one is stepping to the table with any real resolution on the issue. Bmw dragging its feet. Warranty companies don't give you any assurance as some suck some are great, if they are having a bad day they'll find some reason why they won't cover a blown engine. Shops aren't in the business of insurance and want the benefit of bearing sales.

Seems to me this could easily be solved with some community funded program. Those who want chip in, if you have a supercharger or race you pay a premium. If it's just your daily you pay the base. Legally it's done in a way that when/if any recall does occur the money attributed is returned via this entity. Might even help such a case by organizing this within the community.

The real issue is one of Bmw providing faulty cars BUT people over revving or subjecting them to race environments, you can't put the blame on BMW either but still want some way to insure yourself.

Any extra funds over time are donated to charitable cause or some positive thing for the community. Some sort of appointed board to make such calls.

I'd venture to say we are most likely a savvy bunch with some lawyers etc out there to come up with a creative solution to this problem. If the for profits aren't doing it, let's do it here.

Depending on what the financials say, extend backward to some existing scenarios so we solve the problem for people who are in this mess now.

The driver of it all should be, it could happen to you.

Thoughts? Shoot holes through it. Rome doesn't get built in a day.
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      05-23-2018, 03:52 PM   #2
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My biggest concern would be the fund turning into an originally well intentioned Ponzi scheme, like medicare or social security. If it's an "if not when" scenario, the fund is bound to fail and money couldn't be safely invested fast enough in a way where it could be removed as motors fail. Besides, if the premium is the cost of a RB service, (1/10 motor failure cost) just do the RB service and alleviate most of the risk!
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      05-23-2018, 04:35 PM   #3
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This is a terrible idea. Also, we have nowhere near enough data to underwrite the risk, and not nearly large enough a risk pool.
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      05-23-2018, 04:47 PM   #4
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I've posted before that I fully believe that this is overblown since there aren't an abundance of rolling shells for sale, and motors are easy to come by. My blackstone report was good. I did them anyway and saw bearings with premature wear, what a surprise. If this is treated as preventative maintenance and taken seriously this would alleviate most of these threads. Sure it's 2k at a shop, but isn't a DCT service a third of this? Oil changes are well over 100 in parts. Brakes are 2k. The barrier to entry on these cars has come down but the maintenance hasn't. E46 subframe is accepted, maybe this should be too. Not all of them fail, but people reinforce all the time as I understand it.

My DIY RB's last week wasn't even $900, sure it's a lot of money, but isn't that what a DIY front brake job costs? Drops in the ///M bucket.
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      05-23-2018, 05:11 PM   #5
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Given how much the prices have dropped for this service, and the growing list of shops that are competent enough to do it, I think this would be a tough proposition.
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      05-23-2018, 06:38 PM   #6
m3jala
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nrubenstein View Post
This is a terrible idea. Also, we have nowhere near enough data to underwrite the risk, and not nearly large enough a risk pool.
Well, all ideas are terrible, until they aren't. Lol.

There's enough data to underwrite risk.... Given this isn't a for profit venture like a typical insurance company, and it is also focusing on one specific need, that's a lot of risk mitigation right there, lol.

Allow me to demonstrate. Name a number, do you feel that it is safe to assume that the maximum number of vehicles that will have the issue for the next 5 years is 1 out of 50? That number could most likely be gotten from a poll in this board, lol.

Cost of an engine replacement is $15,000?

$15,000 / 50 = $300. Spread that over a three month payment plan across 150 people, I guess most people would pay $100 to get some level of assurance over the next 5 years.

As this is a community, not the free market, there are ways to further set the guidelines of managing that risk in the paperwork.

Money not used after those 5 years goes to a donation people vote on. Numbers are exposed transparently to those that sign up.

To any visionary, perhaps not such a bad idea.

Last edited by m3jala; 05-23-2018 at 06:49 PM.
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      05-23-2018, 06:40 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dparm View Post
Given how much the prices have dropped for this service, and the growing list of shops that are competent enough to do it, I think this would be a tough proposition.
I agree with you on this. Reason I wrote this was for the recent example of someone having a failure *after* the bearings were done. There is also the point that there is far less data on what the reality is like after bearings are done. This is also a potential discussion point on warranting the mains.

I'm not here to do this on my own, but ideas are a dime a dozen, so why not talk it out and end up with something that is better than 0.
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      05-23-2018, 06:49 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMachines View Post
I've posted before that I fully believe that this is overblown since there aren't an abundance of rolling shells for sale, and motors are easy to come by. My blackstone report was good. I did them anyway and saw bearings with premature wear, what a surprise. If this is treated as preventative maintenance and taken seriously this would alleviate most of these threads. Sure it's 2k at a shop, but isn't a DCT service a third of this? Oil changes are well over 100 in parts. Brakes are 2k. The barrier to entry on these cars has come down but the maintenance hasn't. E46 subframe is accepted, maybe this should be too. Not all of them fail, but people reinforce all the time as I understand it.

My DIY RB's last week wasn't even $900, sure it's a lot of money, but isn't that what a DIY front brake job costs? Drops in the ///M bucket.
What you say is fair. For me specifically, I'm not in the environment to do the RB's on my own (townhouse with on-street parking) so it's a $2-3k expense. I have that in my budget, but when I see the risk seems to still remain, and shops don't seem to warrant their work, it's the reason for the write-up. There's also the point that a brake job doesn't total your car whereas work on the bearings can.

I agree with you on the hype. It's impossible to know what's real as we don't have the numbers.
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      05-23-2018, 06:50 PM   #9
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I would definitely pay into this if it happened.
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      05-23-2018, 06:52 PM   #10
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My DIY RB's last week wasn't even $900, sure it's a lot of money, but isn't that what a DIY front brake job costs? Drops in the ///M bucket.[/quote]

I would love to see your parts list and prices of what you purchased for this. I'm considering doing it myself.
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      05-23-2018, 07:32 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMachines View Post
If this is treated as preventative maintenance and taken seriously this would alleviate most of these threads. Sure it's 2k at a shop, but isn't a DCT service a third of this? Oil changes are well over 100 in parts. Brakes are 2k. The barrier to entry on these cars has come down but the maintenance hasn't. E46 subframe is accepted, maybe this should be too. Not all of them fail, but people reinforce all the time as I understand it.

My DIY RB's last week wasn't even $900, sure it's a lot of money, but isn't that what a DIY front brake job costs? Drops in the ///M bucket.
This.
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      05-23-2018, 07:34 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMachines
My DIY RB's last week wasn't even $900, sure it's a lot of money, but isn't that what a DIY front brake job costs? Drops in the ///M bucket.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GerrS65 View Post
I would love to see your parts list and prices of what you purchased for this. I'm considering doing it myself.
pan gasket - 35
OEM bolts - 122 (the hold fine on SC motors so not sure why to change)
BE bearings - 590
engine mounts - 96
assembly lube - cheap
TOTAL = 843, shipping incl, no tax.

For oil, coordinate with scheduled oil change. I did need to buy a bunch of tools to get this done which I didn't amortize. There are signs my oil pan was touching my subframe, my engine mounts were toast.
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      05-23-2018, 08:58 PM   #13
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Community based? That is what insurance is.

Anyway, my proposition is: No. More. Rod. Bearing. Threads.
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      05-23-2018, 09:04 PM   #14
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      05-23-2018, 09:40 PM   #15
m3jala
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delirium330 View Post
Community based? That is what insurance is.

Anyway, my proposition is: No. More. Rod. Bearing. Threads.
Community based as in organized via this community, not the for profit operation you are referring to. lol
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      05-23-2018, 09:41 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by shimmy23 View Post
Murica! i take care of mines and you deal wit yours
Fare opinyun.
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      05-23-2018, 09:43 PM   #17
m3jala
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GerrS65 View Post
I would definitely pay into this if it happened.
I'm not going to push the topic further but wanted to get the thought out there. If others get the vision and want to contribute I'll consider as well.
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      05-23-2018, 09:59 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3jala View Post
I'm not going to push the topic further but wanted to get the thought out there. If others get the vision and want to contribute I'll consider as well.
I think it's a good idea to be unified in this, however, I've stated my fears above. Fund insolvency is a real potential if none of this 'PM' is performed anymore. This isn't a 'murica I'm out for myself'. It's becoming a 'do your PM damnit'.

PM loosely defined.
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      05-23-2018, 10:08 PM   #19
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I'm not knocking the OP for posting this and I'm not saying he's running a scam. But money + online + strangers doesn't seem to have a positive outcome.
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      05-23-2018, 10:09 PM   #20
m3jala
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMachines View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by m3jala View Post
I'm not going to push the topic further but wanted to get the thought out there. If others get the vision and want to contribute I'll consider as well.
I think it's a good idea to be unified in this, however, I've stated my fears above. Fund insolvency is a real potential if none of this 'PM' is performed anymore. This isn't a 'murica I'm out for myself'. It's becoming a 'do your PM damnit'.

PM loosely defined.
Yes, I understood the fears you mentioned and I think they are well put and valid. I also agree that turning this into an excuse to not preventively maintain is a possible no go.

Part of the reason I wrote this was because the shops don't seem to warrant their work citing potential for superchargers and over revs which they can't control. One has the ability to buy insurance at the race track. We all know we mod our cars. So it seems like a solveable gap no one has really been incentivized to handle. I rather pay a couple hundred extra to know I don't have to deal with a 15k bill over the next 5 years (say).

I could picture it taking a route as warranty on preventive maintenance and you need to actually get them replaced to enter the program and with that perhaps the mains which no one replaces are covered. There are different possibilities with this type of idea.
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      05-23-2018, 10:19 PM   #21
m3jala
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JsL View Post
I'm not knocking the OP for posting this and I'm not saying he's running a scam. But money + online + strangers doesn't seem to have a positive outcome.
No knocking interpreted. It's a fair point and anything done would have to be verifiable and transparent to quell that. Part of the challenge.
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