Help with injector flow rates with ESS SC

[irokwrx]

Ok I was looking into some options of running a e85 mix. After looking into it the question came up of what size injectors do I have. Good question! I gave ESS a call and told them Hey I have the G1 kit and need to know the flow rate of the injector....No problem...give me a sec ....Ok sir the injector specs are 39lb and 390cc I thought to my self this is sounds kind of low (LET'S BE CLEAR I HAVE NO CLUE! That's why I am asking here) and he said the injectors are the same on the 590,625 and G1 they are different on the 650. So my question is does that sound right? Also, I see some are mixing E without any controller isn't that pushing the fuel system to the limit. I was also told I could install larger injectors but will have to update the fuel tables (Is that possible with a ess tune since its locked). I am in need of some advice. I don't want a full E85 tune due to the lack of stations in my area and don't want to be switching maps at stations every time I want to run e85. I can see something going wrong. This is all new to me and I want to try to understand it a bit more.

I wish there was a forced induction section.

[DukeofAlexandria]

Let me get this straight....you called the manufacturer, they gave you the exact specs, and now you are saying you don't believe them.

This post is a goddamn train wreck lol. Go pop an injector out and read the number, then you'll know, pretty easy.

[irokwrx]

Originally Posted by DukeofAlexandria

Let me get this straight....you called the manufacturer, they gave you the exact specs, and now you are saying you don't believe them.

This post is a goddamn train wreck lol. Go pop an injector out and read the number, then you'll know, pretty easy.

Really thats what you got for me. Ok you win! You are the "cool" dude that we need in the community!

[DRLane]

To be fair, you literally said "I thought to my self this is sounds kind of low (LET'S BE CLEAR I HAVE NO CLUE! That's why I am asking here)"... Why wouldn't you trust the manufacturer > Internet forums? And lastly, yes the appropriate resolution would be to pull an injector.

There are plenty of FI cars running 4 gallons of E85 per fill up to increase the octane on pump 91. Suggest watching this video and using his spreadsheet. Note, unless you test the ethanol % you're guessing blind on the impact to leaning the gas mixture.

[irokwrx]

[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the vid. I am not saying I don't trust ESS I am saying it seems low. I have not found the flow rates on a post to compare. I can't seem to find the flow/specs of the stock ones. I am not a fan of people on post trying to put others down when they wouldn't do it face to face. So you think the question is stupid....ok ....move on.

[SYT_Shadow]

stock 3 267 cc 31.7
stock 5 445 cc 43.4lb
ESS 625 3 390 cc 36lb
ESS 625 5 650 cc 60lb

ESS is probably using the ones that end in 124 for the sub G+ kit. That's the one above. At 5psi they are 650cc/60lb. Stock at 5 psi is 445cc/43.4lb.

Stock E9X fuel system is 5psi

[DukeofAlexandria]

Originally Posted by irokwrx

Thanks for the vid. I am not saying I don't trust ESS I am saying it seems low. I have not found the flow rates on a post to compare. I can't seem to find the flow/specs of the stock ones. I am not a fan of people on post trying to put others down when they wouldn't do it face to face. So you think the question is stupid....ok ....move on.[/QUOTE]

Oh no, I'll say it to your goddamn face. I'm in MD, you're in MD. I can meet up TONIGHT if you want me to tell it to your fucking face? I have NO issues with that shit.

You posted a dumb question and showed the smallest amount of forum effort/research I've seen in quite some time.
https://www.injectorplanet.com/produ...sch-0280155823
Literally 15 seconds of research got me that.

Your post reeks of someone who's lazy and is about as good as any of the exhaust, oil, or midpipe posts.

What time and where, name the spot.

-Duke

[bavarianmotors]

i just installed G1 kit for customer and the injectors are Bosch 0280158124
the info they told u is correct
Flow Rate - CC's: 390cc's/MIN @ 43.5 PSI

[bvrider1]

Seems like people want to shape their own answers besides reading and researching.

[SonnyJack]

Originally Posted by DukeofAlexandria

Thanks for the vid. I am not saying I don't trust ESS I am saying it seems low. I have not found the flow rates on a post to compare. I can't seem to find the flow/specs of the stock ones. I am not a fan of people on post trying to put others down when they wouldn't do it face to face. So you think the question is stupid....ok ....move on.

Oh no, I'll say it to your goddamn face. I'm in MD, you're in MD. I can meet up TONIGHT if you want me to tell it to your fucking face? I have NO issues with that shit.

You posted a dumb question and showed the smallest amount of forum effort/research I've seen in quite some time.
https://www.injectorplanet.com/produ...sch-0280155823
Literally 15 seconds of research got me that.

Your post reeks of someone who's lazy and is about as good as any of the exhaust, oil, or midpipe posts.

What time and where, name the spot.

-Duke[/QUOTE]

Dude!!!

Way, way over the top. I know DJ and have seen his car and the work he has put into it. Can't be lazy and have done that much quality work. No way. What purpose is served by your condescending responses? You were on tilt from the word go. Why let someone's post get you all worked up?

[irokwrx]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

stock 3 267 cc 31.7
stock 5 445 cc 43.4lb
ESS 625 3 390 cc 36lb
ESS 625 5 650 cc 60lb

ESS is probably using the ones that end in 124 for the sub G+ kit. That's the one above. At 5psi they are 650cc/60lb. Stock at 5 psi is 445cc/43.4lb.

Stock E9X fuel system is 5psi

So if I am reading that correctly the stock-flow is more than the ones for the 625?
Nevermind I see it!

[irokwrx]

Originally Posted by bavarianmotors

i just installed G1 kit for customer and the injectors are Bosch 0280158124
the info they told u is correct
Flow Rate - CC's: 390cc's/MIN @ 43.5 PSI

So you went with the G1! From your messages, I thought it was for your car1?

[pbonsalb]

Variable flow pump. Flow is rated at 3 bar; pump does up to 6 bar, which will increase rated flow by about 40%.

Where is the fight happening? I have never taken injector flow seriously enough to go fight someone over it. You guys are hardcore. Or maybe morons. Probably the latter. This is the internet and its unfortunately full of them.

[DukeofAlexandria]

Originally Posted by SonnyJack

Oh no, I'll say it to your goddamn face. I'm in MD, you're in MD. I can meet up TONIGHT if you want me to tell it to your fucking face? I have NO issues with that shit.

You posted a dumb question and showed the smallest amount of forum effort/research I've seen in quite some time.
https://www.injectorplanet.com/produ...sch-0280155823
Literally 15 seconds of research got me that.

Your post reeks of someone who's lazy and is about as good as any of the exhaust, oil, or midpipe posts.

What time and where, name the spot.

-Duke

Dude!!!

Way, way over the top. I know DJ and have seen his car and the work he has put into it. Can't be lazy and have done that much quality work. No way. What purpose is served by your condescending responses? You were on tilt from the word go. Why let someone's post get you all worked up? [/QUOTE]

Fair, but I have no issues saying shit to peoples face. You're right, I got a bit worked up, but the passive aggressive tone of "won't say it to peoples face" I just won't tolerate.

Sorry, have an ear infection and in a lot of pain. No excuse though and I should have cooled off, my bad.

[irokwrx]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

Variable flow pump. Flow is rated at 3 bar; pump does up to 6 bar, which will increase rated flow by about 40%.

Where is the fight happening? I have never taken injector flow seriously enough to go fight someone over it. You guys are hardcore. Or maybe morons. Probably the latter. This is the internet and its unfortunately full of them.

Ok, thanks. So if is rated at 390 it can flow 550ish with a stock pump. Also is 3 bar always the standard when companies are giving flow rates (Unless otherwise stated)? I am just trying to figure this out

[irokwrx]

Dude!!!

Way, way over the top. I know DJ and have seen his car and the work he has put into it. Can't be lazy and have done that much quality work. No way. What purpose is served by your condescending responses? You were on tilt from the word go. Why let someone's post get you all worked up? [/QUOTE]

Whats up Gary! Yea "Tyson" is on here tonight sick and all...LOL. Its all good I am still going to ask my dumb questions till I figure this crap out.

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by irokwrx

Ok, thanks. So if is rated at 390 it can flow 550ish with a stock pump. Also is 3 bar always the standard when companies are giving flow rates (Unless otherwise stated)? I am just trying to figure this out

3 bar or 43.5 psi (a bar is 14.7 psi) is the industry standard, but some cars run less and some run more. E36M3 runs 3.5 bar or 51.5 psi. E46M3 runs 5 bar or 73.5 psi. E90M3 has a PWM pump with variable pressure and runs up to 6 bar or 88 psi but I do not know the pressure you actually get under high demand like a dyno run.

Very roughly, you need 1/2 lb of fuel to make 1 crank hp. A 600 rwhp supercharger is making over 700 crank hp because there are drivetrain losses and it takes power to spin the blower. You would need roughly 350 lbs fuel per hour at 100% injector duty cycle. 350/8 injectors equals 44 lbs each. You probably don’t want to run them at 100% so add 10% extra and somewhere around 50 lbs would work. You can increase flow by running larger injectors or by increasing pressure. The way BMW is doing it with the variable flow pump is very elegant — added flow only when needed.

For forced induction you also need to increase pressure by the amount of boost to get the same flow because the injectors have to spray against the pressurized air. This is a minimal factor with 8 psi superchargers. It is a more significant issue on my turbocharged E36 M3 that runs up to 25 psi.

For E85, you need about 30% more fuel to make 1 crank hp. So increase injector size by 30% or increase pressure or injector duty cycle to accommodate. ESS pump gas spec injectors for their supercharger systems may not have that much overhead. With a piggy back flex fuel controller, fuel pressure and could also be increased. Some say the stock fuel pump can’t keep up. A few have added a supplemental pump that runs only above a certain boost pressure.

[irokwrx]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

3 bar or 43.5 psi (a bar is 14.7 psi) is the industry standard, but some cars run less and some run more. E36M3 runs 3.5 bar or 51.5 psi. E46M3 runs 5 bar or 73.5 psi. E90M3 has a PWM pump with variable pressure and runs up to 6 bar or 88 psi but I do not know the pressure you actually get under high demand like a dyno run.

Very roughly, you need 1/2 lb of fuel to make 1 crank hp. A 600 rwhp supercharger is making over 700 crank hp because there are drivetrain losses and it takes power to spin the blower. You would need roughly 350 lbs fuel per hour at 100% injector duty cycle. 350/8 injectors equals 44 lbs each. You probably don’t want to run them at 100% so add 10% extra and somewhere around 50 lbs would work. You can increase flow by running larger injectors or by increasing pressure. The way BMW is doing it with the variable flow pump is very elegant — added flow only when needed.

For forced induction you also need to increase pressure by the amount of boost to get the same flow because the injectors have to spray against the pressurized air. This is a minimal factor with 8 psi superchargers. It is a more significant issue on my turbocharged E36 M3 that runs up to 25 psi.

For E85, you need about 30% more fuel to make 1 crank hp. So increase injector size by 30% or increase pressure or injector duty cycle to accommodate. ESS pump gas spec injectors for their supercharger systems may not have that much overhead. With a piggy back flex fuel controller, fuel pressure and could also be increased. Some say the stock fuel pump can’t keep up. A few have added a supplemental pump that runs only above a certain boost pressure.

Thank you for explaining that. After reading that I have a little bit more understanding it seems as if the flow rate of the supplied injectors with the lower tear kits are low for what is asked of them. No headroom and working above 80 duty cycle. Every calculator I put the numbers in says they are too small. Again thanks

This is the calc I have been using.
https://www.rcfuelinjection.com/technical

[pbonsalb]

They are fine for what is asked of them. You want to do what ESS did not intend them for — run E85.

I recall reading about a few people doing what you want to do. They says it worked fine. They were using flex fuel controllers. Before I would do it, I would do more research. Going past 80% does not worry me. Running out of pump does. I once lost a motor because of that racing a GTR. But there are fixes for everything. A larger injector tune, a flex fuel controller, a secondary pump.

[irokwrx]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

They are fine for what is asked of them. You want to do what ESS did not intend them for — run E85.

I recall reading about a few people doing what you want to do. They says it worked fine. They were using flex fuel controllers. Before I would do it, I would do more research. Going past 80% does not worry me. Running out of pump does. I once lost a motor because of that racing a GTR. But there are fixes for everything. A larger injector tune, a flex fuel controller, a secondary pump.

Ok. So can I run a different fuel map with the ESS tune? So my thought is get a flex fuel comander larger injectors with a fuel map. Would that work?

[pbonsalb]

With a tune. Inquire with the tuners about an E85 supercharger tune with larger injectors. Also research fuel pumps. It’s all been posted here before.

[irokwrx]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

With a tune. Inquire with the tuners about an E85 supercharger tune with larger injectors. Also research fuel pumps. It’s all been posted here before.

Again thanks for taking the time to explain this. I sent you a PM. When you get a chance let me know what you think.