ZCP vs 6MT

[BOOF-M3]

Looks like DCT E93 non ZCP won the poll guys. Thanks for coming out and voting as the polls are officially closed.

[Bemo]

Originally Posted by BOOF-M3

Looks like DCT E93 non ZCP won the poll guys. Thanks for coming out and voting as the polls are officially closed.

With 94 responses, this is not a statistically significant poll, not even factoring in the heavy enthusiast presence in this forum, which is overwhelmingly biased towards manuals.

I like both equally much but a famous Mark Twain quote comes to mind: "There are lies, damned lies and statistics."

[STooK]

Definitely apples to oranges. Someone wanting a manual may or may not want ZCP but they will 100% pass on a DCT car whether it has ZCP or not.

A non ZCP can be easily changed to look like one but going from DCT to 6MT, not so easy.

[carenthuziast]

Originally Posted by STooK

Definitely apples to oranges. Someone wanting a manual may or may not want ZCP but they will 100% pass on a DCT car whether it has ZCP or not.

A non ZCP can be easily changed to look like one but going from DCT to 6MT, not so easy.

Zcp offers a slightly lowered suspension and some aesthetic changes. Zcp was not offered for the E93 by BMW which lends you to believe that along with the added weight, bmw never intended the E93 to be the best option on the track, and no E93 owner has ever argued that it is. Thus, the “my e90/e92 is faster than your E93” position is another apples to orange comparison.

[carenthuziast]

https://carbuzz.com/news/prepare-to-...-r8-ever-built

[carenthuziast]

Originally Posted by GRUESOM3

definitely 6MT

If you think about it this picture is actually incorrect.

For a manual driver the right leg is just as busy if not busier. But, for an automatic driver the right calf should more muscular while the left leg (left side driver) would have less muscle tone.

[MachinesWithSouls]

Originally Posted by carenthuziast

Zcp offers a slightly lowered suspension and some aesthetic changes. Zcp was not offered for the E93 by BMW which lends you to believe that along with the added weight, bmw never intended the E93 to be the best option on the track, and no E93 owner has ever argued that it is. Thus, the “my e90/e92 is faster than your E93” position is another apples to orange comparison.

I believe there were rigidity concerns. The M4 vert has a comp pack.

[steveff4]

When I spent months looking for the right e92, I knew I wanted 6MT ZCP in Interlagos blue with low mileage.

I know for real track use EDC isn't up to par, but I do enjoy the difference it can make on the street. Most of the time I just cruise around in normal mode. I have a nice commute to work on some back roads that have some great corners. Putting the EDC to +1 definitely cuts down on body roll and eliminates any 'bounce' on initial turn in, which can upset the feel. Rarely if ever do I use +2.

[DSilk]

Originally Posted by steveff4

When I spent months looking for the right e92, I knew I wanted 6MT ZCP in Interlagos blue with low mileage.

I know for real track use EDC isn't up to par, but I do enjoy the difference it can make on the street. Most of the time I just cruise around in normal mode. I have a nice commute to work on some back roads that have some great corners. Putting the EDC to +1 definitely cuts down on body roll and eliminates any 'bounce' on initial turn in, which can upset the feel. Rarely if ever do I use +2.

I agree. the firmest setting is too jarring on most normal roads, while the middle setting provides the right amount of firmness while maintaining a reasonable ride quality. The "comfort" setting is too soft for a sporting car, and allows too much roll.

[STooK]

Originally Posted by carenthuziast

Zcp offers a slightly lowered suspension and some aesthetic changes. Zcp was not offered for the E93 by BMW which lends you to believe that along with the added weight, bmw never intended the E93 to be the best option on the track, and no E93 owner has ever argued that it is. Thus, the “my e90/e92 is faster than your E93” position is another apples to orange comparison.

Yes you are correct. The 10mm lowered suspension is definitely noticeable, but can be achieved by throwing on eibachs on a non zcp car. Same with the wheels. I also had a e93, had zcp wheels on and it didn’t look right. Probably cuz I never lowered it.

[carenthuziast]

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/bm...issionsfor-now

[94jedi]

Lots of great points here. I searched for an e9x M3 for a long time before pulling the trigger. In my experience the 2011 E90 ZCP 6MT slicktop was the "IT" car (granted, I was looking for an e90 vs a 92) and in second place was the 2013 e90 ZCP 6MT. I looked at plenty of DCT cars but they just weren't as "desired" as their 6MT brethren. I ended up w/ an 08 e90, 6MT slicktop...I did pay a premium but the condition it was in and the high quality mods made it worth it to me.

Back to the topic at hand - the DCT is definitely faster (in every way possible) and "easier" to drive fast, for the general public. No questions there. But the 6MT in capable hands is no slouch and the feedback/feeling I do believe is better (highly subjective) than the DCT. Being what this car is and who it's aimed at, I do believe the 6MT will always be valued a bit more than a DCT, all else being equal.

[tooloud10]

Originally Posted by vincE92M3

NA V8 plus 6MT just go hand-in-hand. There will never be another M3 like this!

Originally Posted by carenthuziast

Classic with classic..

6MT + NA V8.

I might agree with you guys about a Corvette or something else with a pushrod V8, but the DCT is just made for an engine that revs to 8400 and has a power curve like the S65. I am very happy to have MTs in my 911 and Miata, but those are different kinds of cars.

I've read plenty here that the DCT is awesome, and it's not a fair comparison, but I had a rental car this week...a Camry with paddle shifters. I'm not trying ot compare an M car with a Camry, but just the mode of driving.

It's just normal for humans to take the path of least resistance given the circumstances and there's no way I would use those shifters much if my M was dct...I would just drive it like an automatic that it is.

My DD is an automatic Altima V6 with paddles and I agree with you about a car like that--I simply never touch the paddles. But I use my DCT in manual mode almost 100% of the time. It doesn't feel like an automatic in any way--in auto mode it feels like a manual that someone is somehow shifting for you from the passenger seat. When I use the DCT in auto mode, it always feels like it's in the wrong gear, and it's not good at quickly downshifting for passing, etc.

Don't get me wrong, the DCT auto mode has its place, but I find myself rarely using it.

[carenthuziast]

Originally Posted by tooloud10

I might agree with you guys about a Corvette or something else with a pushrod V8, but the DCT is just made for an engine that revs to 8400 and has a power curve like the S65. I am very happy to have MTs in my 911 and Miata, but those are different kinds of cars.



My DD is an automatic Altima V6 with paddles and I agree with you about a car like that--I simply never touch the paddles. But I use my DCT in manual mode almost 100% of the time. It doesn't feel like an automatic in any way--in auto mode it feels like a manual that someone is somehow shifting for you from the passenger seat. When I use the DCT in auto mode, it always feels like it's in the wrong gear, and it's not good at quickly downshifting for passing, etc.

Don't get me wrong, the DCT auto mode has its place, but I find myself rarely using it.

It really makes no sense to me why anyone with the dct would flap paddles during a daily drive to work in heavy traffic or running an errand down the street to Walmart when the power curve doesn’t matter and fuel efficiency matters more.

Sure, if you’re on a track or on a canyon run I can see why you would want to have fun with the dct, but unless you spend more of your driving time on the track versus on the road driving to work, it’s really needless because there’s no challenge in it. There’s no skill you’re trying to perfect with the dct compared to the 6mt.

[SoCalRPM]

Originally Posted by carenthuziast

It really makes no sense to me why anyone with the dct would flap paddles during a daily drive to work in heavy traffic or running an errand down the street to Walmart when the power curve doesn't matter and fuel efficiency matters more.

Sure, if you're on a track or on a canyon run I can see why you would want to have fun with the dct, but unless you spend more of your driving time on the track versus on the road driving to work, it's really needless because there's no challenge in it. There's no skill you're trying to perfect with the dct compared to the 6mt.

This argument doesn't seem to have any weight. I would assert that for most, manually shifting and selecting gears while driving is mainly about pure driving pleasure. Sure, fuel economy plays a role. Whether a DCT or 6MT no one really believes they are "trying to perfect" their shifting habits while running down the street to get milk at Trader Joe's. Sure, there is more skill involved in using a clutch, but that doesn't mean shifting gears with a DCT is just utterly pointless then.

[BOOF-M3]

I disagree with all the arguments. Power steering & brakes would need to be removed from these cars including struts that sense every little movement in the road if we want to talk about "skill". There is literally zero skill involved with driving a manual car. I learned on a 3 speed manual by myself with zero help at the age of 15. Start car, push in clutch, move shifter to first, slowly release clutch, give it gas and go, or did I just stall it out?

[carenthuziast]

Originally Posted by SoCalRPM

This argument doesn't seem to have any weight. I would assert that for most, manually shifting and selecting gears while driving is mainly about pure driving pleasure. Sure, fuel economy plays a role. Whether a DCT or 6MT no one really believes they are "trying to perfect" their shifting habits while running down the street to get milk at Trader Joe's. Sure, there is more skill involved in using a clutch, but that doesn't mean shifting gears with a DCT is just utterly pointless then.

Shifting gears with dct does seem pointless when dct owners say the auto mode is so good. Even if it wasn’t so good, the car can move without flapping paddles.

[carenthuziast]

Originally Posted by BOOF-M3

I disagree with all the arguments. Power steering & brakes would need to be removed from these cars including struts that sense every little movement in the road or we went to talk about "skill". There is literally zero skill involved with driving a manual car. I learned on a 3 speed manual by myself with zero help at the age of 15. Start car, push in clutch, move shifter to first, slowly release clutch, give it gas and go, or did I just stall it out?

Lol. If zero skill is involved with driving a manual then why can’t everyone do it? In fact, ~85% of those that drive a car can’t drive manual.

[BOOF-M3]

Ahh fake news again.

[UPSROD]

Originally Posted by carenthuziast

Lol. If zero skill is involved with driving a manual then why can’t everyone do it? In fact, ~85% of those that drive a car can’t drive manual.

In YOUR generation, not mine....in fact both of my daughters learned to drive a stick....they are in their early 40's now! It DOESN'T mean that the have a big dick....which overall seems to be the reason to drive a manual on here! lol Driving a manual trans. in the 50's-90's simply mean't that you were performance oriented' not a stud!

[carenthuziast]

Originally Posted by BOOF-M3

Ahh fake news again.

Not talking about your toupee

[carenthuziast]

Originally Posted by UPSROD

In YOUR generation, not mine....in fact both of my daughters learned to drive a stick....they are in their early 40's now! It DOESN'T mean that the have a big dick....which overall seems to be the reason to drive a manual on here! lol Driving a manual trans. in the 50's-90's simply mean't that you were performance oriented' not a stud!

the only thing I’ve read for 6mt on this forum is more driver engagement. No one has ever claimed that the E9x was faster with 6mt or best with the NAV8. Only you seem to have dick on your mind.