CSF Radiator or CSF Oil Cooler

[Dr. Dre]

I wanted to know from you guys. If had to choose one for running on track with regards long term reliability. Would way would you guys go Radiator or Oil Cooler?

[Bimmer Barney]

Our cars don't suffer over oil or water overheating issues generally so I'd choose neither and go larger DCT or PS cooler.

If you're set on one of these two I'd choose radiator for superior design and strength (welded end tanks vs plastic)

[kyippee]

I believe radiator would help lower max temps while oil cooler helps cool down faster. Just do both while you're at it?

- guy with CSF oil cooler but stock radiator. max temps seem to be the same

[roastbeef]

each of the coolers helps the other. i don't know which would be more beneficial. i know the csf coolers aren't regarded as being a significant solution for either. dogbone and okusa did some data on the csf and didn't really notice anything significantly different. basically, that tells me these coolers are worthless.

[VictorH]

Get the radiator. It's a quality piece and fit is perfect. Also, at least on track the temp difference seems to be larger with the radiator than an oil cooler (I have M24 oil cooler).

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by Bimmer Barney

Our cars don't suffer over oil or water overheating issues generally

On the street, yes, the M3 is not prone to overheating.

On the track with a novice driver and 300 treadwear tires, again yes, overheating is not too much of an issue. (You're just not pushing the engine hard enough.)

But you put a seasoned driver with grippy tires in an E9x M3 on track, and that car will overheat within just a few laps.

Sadly, there are no clear-cut, ready-to-go "normal" solutions for the E9x M3 that magically lower max engine oil and water temps. What we seem to see from these aftermarket solutions is that they help high temps come down a bit faster on a cool down lap. (The true solution---that would only be appropriate for a dedicated race car---is spending $8000 on a dry sump system.)

On the DCT cooler side, the do88 DCT cooler does actually lower the max temps by a few degrees, and it really cools the fluid quite a bit more efficiently than the stock cooler, but it is almost double the size of the stock unit.

[jid2]

^^^^ This. Once you are driving the car pinned lap after lap it has cooling issues all around. The CSF radiator is OK, not magic. All the other coolers are better from Do88. But even with all of the items and a vented hood the cooling isn't solved. These run hot.

[Bimmer Barney]

Originally Posted by jid2

^^^^ This. Once you are driving the car pinned lap after lap it has cooling issues all around. The CSF radiator is OK, not magic. All the other coolers are better from Do88. But even with all of the items and a vented hood the cooling isn't solved. These run hot.

I'm no pro, but no novice either. Ran Buttonwillow in 120 deg track temp for a 45 minute session and didn't have any cooling issues. I eventually ran off because stock brakes gave up. I think you're spot on if this is a dedicated track car, but for occasional track cars I would be surprised if an investment in vac radiator or oil cooler would be meaningful.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by Bimmer Barney

I'm no pro, but no novice either. Ran Buttonwillow in 120 deg track temp for a 45 minute session and didn't have any cooling issues. I eventually ran off because stock brakes gave up. I think you're spot on if this is a dedicated track car, but for occasional track cars I would be surprised if an investment in vac radiator or oil cooler would be meaningful.

45 minutes on a 120ºF track. Please don't take my questions as badgering you. But I have to ask two questions:

-What tires were you running?
-What were your lap times during that session?

I'm just trying to put your experience in context. Many of us have been dealing with the topic of heat in S65 engines on track since 2011. One of the people in our group cured the heat issue by buying a Porsche.

[macdude357]

Here is my experience...

I've been having over heating issues for quite some time. I initially had just the stock radiator and oil cooler and would get temp warnings after 10-15 minutes on track (it even happened at Laguna Seca on a 75* day). I installed N15 hood vents and while that seems to give me a bit more front end grip (car wants to oversteer on high speed corners even though it's pretty neutral on low speed corners), it didn't do squat for engine temps. I was able to get a free CSF Radiator as a contingency for the time trial series I run in. That really didn't help either and in fact, the second time out with it at a ~100* day at Buttonwillow, I had water escape from the overflow tank cap (it's doubles as a pressure relief valve).

I started to suspect a bad thermostat or water pump. I did some testing where I started the car, then used a laser pyrometer to check the temps of the radiator and hoses as the engine warmed up. I found that the radiator and hoses would increase in temps as the engine warmed up. This really shouldn't happen since water should not be flowing through the radiator until it exceeds the thermostat temps. So I replaced the thermostat and since I've got 92k miles on my car, decided to go ahead and have the water pump replaced at the same time. The water pump impeller had scoring on it which may indicate the bearings were going out. Also, after replacement, the car gets up to normal temps much faster so I suspect that my thermostat wasn't fully closing. My last time out at Buttonwillow in similar temps, the car got hot (~260* oil temps), but never hot enough to cause the temp warning to show up so that seems to have helped a bit.

I should have enough points after this weekend for a free CSF Oil cooler. I'm going to install that and I'll report back if that makes any difference as well.

[Bimmer Barney]

Originally Posted by dogbone

45 minutes on a 120ºF track. Please don't take my questions as badgering you. But I have to ask two questions:

-What tires were you running?
-What were your lap times during that session?

I'm just trying to put your experience in context. Many of us have been dealing with the topic of heat in S65 engines on track since 2011. One of the people in our group cured the heat issue by buying a Porsche.

No offense taken! There are probably slightly less people faster than you, than there are faster than me

Was running 2:12's. Definitely not fast but not lost out there. Running Firestone FireHawk Indy 500's at 36 psi hot.

To give you context for the day, the GT3RS guys in the open group were running 1:54 on their fastest laps on Trofeo R's. I was 3rd fastest time in point-by group. It was so hot I had the track literally to myself from 2pm-5pm.

[Bimmer Barney]

Originally Posted by Bimmer Barney

No offense taken! There are probably slightly less people faster than you, than there are faster than me

Was running 2:12's. Definitely not fast but not lost out there. Running Firestone FireHawk Indy 500's at 36 psi hot.

To give you context for the day, the GT3RS guys in the open group were running 1:54 on their fastest laps on Trofeo R's. I was 3rd fastest time in point-by group. It was so hot I had the track literally to myself from 2pm-5pm.

Originally Posted by Bimmer Barney

No offense taken! There are probably slightly less people faster than you, than there are faster than me

Was running 2:12's. Definitely not fast but not lost out there. Running Firestone FireHawk Indy 500's at 36 psi hot.

To give you context for the day, the GT3RS guys in the open group were running 1:54 on their fastest laps on Trofeo R's. I was 3rd fastest time in point-by group. It was so hot I had the track literally to myself from 2pm-5pm.

Engine temps were pegged around 260 but no warning lights for engine temp or DCT temp. Brakes got hot enough that I couldn't check tire pressure post session without gloves on due to radiant heat.

[slicer]

Originally Posted by Bimmer Barney

No offense taken! There are probably slightly less people faster than you, than there are faster than me

Was running 2:12's. Definitely not fast but not lost out there. Running Firestone FireHawk Indy 500's at 36 psi hot.

To give you context for the day, the GT3RS guys in the open group were running 1:54 on their fastest laps on Trofeo R's. I was 3rd fastest time in point-by group. It was so hot I had the track literally to myself from 2pm-5pm.

I believe Dogbone's and other fast M3's times are equal to or less than the GT3 times you quoted. That's a whole different world when it comes to the heat produced and managed by the car.

[Bimmer Barney]

@slicer oh for sure, I agree 100%. None of the times from this example day would be considered fast. My point before this gets too derailed is that unless this is a dedicated track car or more, it likely won't have heating issues in my experience. I'm definitely in the average zone. So if an average guy can go out and do 45 minute sessions of hot lapping on a 125F track temp without overheating, the money is probably spent better elsewhere. As I re-read dogbone post he is saying the same thing.

[Z K]

I'm curious as well. Which is more beneficial for cooling on track, an upgraded radiator or oil cooler?

I've never had issues on track with stock cooling. The oil temps will go up to 260 just about every track day but never any warnings and the car runs fine at that temp.

[macdude357]

I think that we've lost site of the original question which was about long term reliability, not necessarily avoiding overheating (although they are somewhat related). I think the bottom line is that replacing the oil cooler and/or radiator doesn't seem to help engine temps much so it wouldn't really do much for long term reliability, other than the fact that the aftermarket radiators are all aluminum so you don't have to worry about plastic radiator parts breaking.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by macdude357

I think that we've lost site of the original question which was about long term reliability, not necessarily avoiding overheating (although they are somewhat related). I think the bottom line is that replacing the oil cooler and/or radiator doesn't seem to help engine temps much so it wouldn't really do much for long term reliability, other than the fact that the aftermarket radiators are all aluminum so you don't have to worry about plastic radiator parts breaking.

If that is your concern, I'd say get the radiator. Aluminum end tanks are more durable. It would be a good time to replace the water pump, thermostat and hoses too.

[aus]

I find if I rev it out to to 8200 RPM over and over, it overheads pretty quickly on a hot day. Rev to 7600-7800 RPM and no major issues. I know I'm missing out on peak power but I'm not winning any awards out there doing HPDE.
.

[leo95se]

my experience with the csf oil cooler is that it does nothing. its possible there is still a lot of heat soak from the radiator, but for the cost, and requirement to add even more oil to the system, i wouldnt use it, and instead upgrade the water system.

[bigjae1976]

One issue is the ac condenser in front of everything, it gets filled with stuff (bugs, leaves, gravel, dirt) which reduces the airflow. I'd get an new OE radiator and oil cooler and blow out the condenser really well.

I don't see how aftermarket oil coolers are much better. Most of the size increase is the depth. All your doing is cooling the oil with hotter air. I ran my E90 on conti scrubs with stock power. The car never went into limp mode but I'm sure I was close. It's DCT car so you know I was shifting at 8200. If anything, the DCT would get sluggish before I ran into oil or water temp issues. I'm sure if you add power then you need to add cooling.

IMO, the only way to add cooling is to expose more radiator surface area to fresh air. Yes...secondary coolers in series with OEM.

[roastbeef]

i wonder if it would be possible to cut the a/c condenser in half to free up some main radiator real estate...

i'd be happy with a less efficient a/c if it meant a more efficient cooling system. i just can't get rid of it completely.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by macdude357

Here is my experience...

I've been having over heating issues for quite some time. I initially had just the stock radiator and oil cooler and would get temp warnings after 10-15 minutes on track (it even happened at Laguna Seca on a 75* day). I installed N15 hood vents and while that seems to give me a bit more front end grip (car wants to oversteer on high speed corners even though it's pretty neutral on low speed corners), it didn't do squat for engine temps. I was able to get a free CSF Radiator as a contingency for the time trial series I run in. That really didn't help either and in fact, the second time out with it at a ~100* day at Buttonwillow, I had water escape from the overflow tank cap (it's doubles as a pressure relief valve).

I started to suspect a bad thermostat or water pump. I did some testing where I started the car, then used a laser pyrometer to check the temps of the radiator and hoses as the engine warmed up. I found that the radiator and hoses would increase in temps as the engine warmed up. This really shouldn't happen since water should not be flowing through the radiator until it exceeds the thermostat temps. So I replaced the thermostat and since I've got 92k miles on my car, decided to go ahead and have the water pump replaced at the same time. The water pump impeller had scoring on it which may indicate the bearings were going out. Also, after replacement, the car gets up to normal temps much faster so I suspect that my thermostat wasn't fully closing. My last time out at Buttonwillow in similar temps, the car got hot (~260* oil temps), but never hot enough to cause the temp warning to show up so that seems to have helped a bit.

I should have enough points after this weekend for a free CSF Oil cooler. I'm going to install that and I'll report back if that makes any difference as well.

any pics of the scoring? and what part gets scored? the round part on the outside of the blades hits the channel its in from being loose or something?