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      05-01-2018, 03:42 PM   #45
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Start with the basics. Lower your compression.

Did you by chance dial in the car to have no body roll? You will have less grip that way.
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      05-01-2018, 03:44 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogbone View Post
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The best part: that was dialed for only this specific track and configuration lol
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      05-01-2018, 08:57 PM   #47
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> When were those temps taken:
This century circa 2018

>> by whom:
By me

>> and how long after a hot lap?
At NYST you get the first checkered flag about half lap, and a second checkered 3/4 lap. Then you have to get to your paddock area. So it takes at least 5 to 7 minutes or more before you can take temp.
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      05-01-2018, 09:00 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cherry-m3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
>> Turn 1 and 2 are off camber.
Correct if you turn late. I am turning in before the off camber. If i go further, I am in much worse off camber

yes.... the apex becomes the second carb. I tried that and it was not better.
I've been on NYST many times and tried both methods. It just changes angle of attack.
Would love to meet you.
I did about 16 track days in 2017.
will you be there May 11,12,13?
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      05-02-2018, 10:15 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
Would love to meet you.
I did about 16 track days in 2017.
will you be there May 11,12,13?
I might try for the 11 or 12th for a shakedown (depending on if my car is ready).

Both methods work. When I say angle of attack, if you square your nose towards the apex of 1, it pushes your moment of inertia further towards the trackout of turn 2 giving you more space to rotate and accelerate through the turn.

An earlier apex changes that moment to the 3/4 of the turn (with the off camber portion of the road not helping your cause).
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      05-02-2018, 12:02 PM   #50
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>> I will definitely come for the 11 or 12th for a shakedown

Fixed it for you ^

There are not that many E92 M3 on that track, I am sure we can find each other.

The 11 is 3 groups 20min sessions
the 12-13 is 4 groups 15min session.
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      05-04-2018, 03:14 PM   #51
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Just a suggestion, but I think you would really enjoy doing a morning with an instructor, that afternoon by yourself, then the next morning with the instructor again.

MDM really interferes with these cars in the corners and smokes rear brake pads, but it can take some time and tips to drive them spin-free at speed. In-car instruction is the fastest way to get there. One weekend isn't enough, but it will level you up some and give you an idea whether you want to pursue more instruction.

With nothing more than camber plates and 200 treadwear tires, our cars will hang with a Cayman S or a 996 through the corners, and almost hang with a C5. They are naturally better on corner exit than entry or mid, so I try not to heat up my tires overworking entry and mid.

Also, once a guy puts dampers and springs on a car, the rebound adjustments are a big deal. On my E36, if the rebound ratios between the front and the rear are off by a quarter turn, the car oversteers like a hippo on roller skates.
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      05-04-2018, 05:30 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarrantyTracker View Post
MDM really interferes with these cars in the corners and smokes rear brake pads......
MDM uses the front brakes 99.9% of the time. I did a long post on this awhile ago. An AIM Solo DL can log the caliper activations of each caliper individually. So, using AIM Solo DL data charts from 5 different tracks, I illustrated that almost ALL the time, MDM uses the front brakes.

You can check out that post here:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...7&postcount=27

Last edited by dogbone; 05-04-2018 at 06:22 PM..
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      05-04-2018, 05:30 PM   #53
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[Update]
Came home from a business trip and finally got to make the changes i have been dreaming about all week.

The rear is now set to Hotchkis softest which is +56% stiffer that stock (175lbs/in)

The front is moved to the second position from softest position
That is +73% from stock and 335lbs/in

went for a test drive and it is unscientifically feels good

on the front I could not configure it to the softest settings because on the drive side the last position interfere with the little arm that control the headlights aiming.
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      05-07-2018, 10:56 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogbone View Post
MDM uses the front brakes 99.9% of the time. I did a long post on this awhile ago. An AIM Solo DL can log the caliper activations of each caliper individually. So, using AIM Solo DL data charts from 5 different tracks, I illustrated that almost ALL the time, MDM uses the front brakes.

You can check out that post here:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...7&postcount=27
I know, right? But it still manages to wear through the rears quite a bit faster than taking matters into my own hands.
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      05-07-2018, 01:33 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
> When were those temps taken:
This century circa 2018

>> by whom:
By me

>> and how long after a hot lap?
At NYST you get the first checkered flag about half lap, and a second checkered 3/4 lap. Then you have to get to your paddock area. So it takes at least 5 to 7 minutes or more before you can take temp.
That’s too much time to get good info. Temps need to be taken within a minute or so of cornering at speed to get anything valuable. After a cooldown lap is much too long. 5-7 minutes is essentially worthless
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      05-07-2018, 04:00 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarrantyTracker View Post
I know, right? But it still manages to wear through the rears quite a bit faster than taking matters into my own hands.
(I ran MDM for 4 years and around 100 track days and I have lots and lots of AIM Solo DL data to look at.)

I really don't think MDM is at fault for your rear wear if you're seeing something unusual. Your fronts?---yes. Rears?---no, not from what I see in the data.

Again, look at the charts I posted. The rears are virtually never engaged by MDM at the 5 different tracks, on some pretty quick laps. I mention the lap times because a faster lap has more opportunity for MDM to step in. If you drove a casual lap, MDM would not feel as much need to step in. There's nothing secretive or mysterious going on with the brakes here. If the calipers activate, the AIM would show it. You can see it clearly with the fronts. The front calipers activate quite frequently in small amounts without any brake pedal input from me. That's the MDM system stepping in.

And it's worth mentioning that the 5 tracks in those charts represent a wide variety of track styles and surface challenges. It's not like I'm only considering one track. Buttonwillow, Big Willow, Sonoma, Laguna Seca and Chuckwalla offer MANY different and unique challenges---long high speed sweepers, medium steady-state sweepers, slow hairpins, off-camber turns, off-camber uphill turns, off-camber downhill turns, blind turns at the crest of hills with off-camber falloff on exit, downhill carousels, banked bowls, decreasing radius high speed turns, super tight turns, Corkscrews, big elevation changes, Esses, berm hopping, berm riding into turns, wide tracks, narrow tracks, bad pavement, good pavement, pavement drop offs in braking zones, momentum tracks, technical tracks.....you name it, the 5 tracks in those charts have it. MDM would have had PLENTY of opportunities to intervene using the rears if it felt necessary, but it almost never does.

Once I turned DSC off, my front pads lasted longer by almost 50% (9-10 days versus 13-15). The front rotors went from around 25 days to almost 40 when DSC was turned off.

I didn't notice any change in rear wear once DSC was turned off. In my experience, the rear wear has always been very slow compared to the front regardless of whether traction control is on or off.

If you're seeing fast rear pad wear, I would wonder if something is up with your brake system.
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      05-07-2018, 04:21 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhyary View Post
What is your front camber at?
-2.5 and I can push it in a bit more. I may just do that to see what happens
What are you running for front and rear toe? Factory specs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogbone View Post
(I ran MDM for 4 years and around 100 track days and I have lots and lots of AIM Solo DL data to look at.)

I really don't think MDM is at fault for your rear wear if you're seeing something unusual. Your fronts?---yes. Rears?---no, not from what I see in the data.
Wouldn't excessive rear wheel spin cause MDM to use the rear brakes? Perhaps different driving is causing different results.
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      05-07-2018, 04:54 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdott View Post
Wouldn't excessive rear wheel spin cause MDM to use the rear brakes? Perhaps different driving is causing different results.
What you'll find is that MDM will kill engine power if the tires are spinning up and the car is starting to slide. Sometimes the cut in power is quite sudden. You wonder if something is wrong with the car. Basically, there's no point in leaving the engine power up at full if the tires are out of control. Continuing to add more power to the wheels if someone is mashing the gas pedal and then MDM applying the brakes to reduce sliding is not an efficient or reliable way of controlling things. Too many variables. Cutting power is reliable. So, it cuts the power and largely ignores your gas pedal input.

Also, the diff in the M3 is a speed sensing unit. The only way it will lock is if the wheels spin different speeds. MDM allows the diff to work. So, it has to allow the rear wheels to spin at different speeds. (I have plenty of data for that too from when i did my big diff write up.)

Don't get me wrong, I didn't say MDM NEVER engages the rear brakes. I just have a lot of AIM data from fairly quick laps that shows that it chooses the fronts the vast majority of the time. Perhaps during a wild tank-slapper, or some crazy oversteer moment, or if a supercharged car does something really erratic, then maybe it will start doing other things. (I would even argue that MDM can sense those things in their early stages and heads most of them off.) But in the normal situation of a driver trying to go fast on a road course-style track, the standard operating procedure of MDM is to mostly use the front brakes and reduce engine power/ignore your gas pedal press.
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      05-07-2018, 11:33 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thasuperdude View Post
I can't tell without throttle input displayed, but you're a little stabby with the throttle in mid-corner.
Exactly this.

Before a long straight, you sacrifice entry speed for exit speed. Almost every time. You clearly come in too hot because you come off the throttle. You've got revs when you downshift and then you come off the throttle and lose momentum. You did that a couple of times during the lap. What happens is you might lose 1 mph at the exit and that multiplies down the straight. So it might be something like 3-5 mph slower at the end of the straight.

Pretty simple...stop screwing around with your suspension settings and clean up the driving. The absolute worst thing you can do is to fix driving by suspension tuning.

If you want more corner speed you need to turn in earlier and give it MORE throttle. Not less. Steer the car with your right foot. The only thing you can do to make the car go faster is give it more gas.
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      05-08-2018, 03:30 AM   #60
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>> Pretty simple...stop screwing around with your suspension settings and clean up the driving

Easy there.
I am showing you a lap I am trying things and playing with what works and what doesn't. I am not trying to get the NYST best driver award.

The topic of this thread is sway bars not my driving.

Lastly, thank you for your input. I have three days coming and I will be screwing around with my suspension, improving my driving and having fun.
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      05-08-2018, 03:37 AM   #61
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[Update]
I talked to Hotchkis support.
They wanted me to set the rear on the stiffer settings.

Since I already set the rear to the softest settings, i will try staying softest rear and second from softest front to see how it feels. Then, either mid day i will switch to the stiffer settings, or just do the best with that and change to stiffer before the second day start.

As a reminder, the topic of this thread is trying to improve the long slow 40mph turns by adjusting the relationship between front and back sway bar stiffness while an idiot is behind the wheel.

Weather looks good this weekend.
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      05-08-2018, 05:25 AM   #62
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its hard to say for sure that you should only be looking at the rear swaybar, and that firmer is the way to go. as others have mentioned, you're already running some hefty springs.
i think you'll like a little less swaybar up front, as well as the rear. to really feel which way you need to go- try some extremes. try one bar all the way stiff, and one bar all the way soft. it might magnify the effect and give you a clearer idea of a direction for your specific car. it sounds like you are planning on making swaybar changes in the field. be careful not to pre-load the bars, it is only going to compound the problem and make troubleshooting more difficult.

there are a few posts in this thread where people are giving useful feedback and you're response is to challenge them. at least thats how i'm interpreting some of your responses. i don't think anyone is saying you're bad, just maybe a few things could be better. there is always room for improvement, and even the "perfectly" tuned car might not do what you think it should with less than ideal driving lines and inputs.
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      05-08-2018, 06:26 AM   #63
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>> to really feel which way you need to go- try some extremes. try one bar all the way stiff, and one bar all the way soft.

Yes, this is the intention


>> there are a few posts in this thread where people are giving useful feedback and you're response is to challenge them.

First, I am trying to do my best to show appreciation to all the responses.

I think in small increments and like to stay on topic. So while any driving technics are very useful, the thread is not about my driving.

I will be opening a thread to solicit driving advise and any input from the form will be tried on the track and will either have results or not.

I am timing the laps, and I will try everything. late apex, early apex, stupid lines, the right lines, i go slow, I go fast.

What I like about this hobby is that the results show up in numbers rather then opinions.

if you comment on my thread, expect to be challenged. But, i do take everything in and learn tons from everyone comments. Do not confuse me challenging a response with me not appreciating the response.

If I come across as not appreciative, my sincere apologies.
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      05-08-2018, 11:47 AM   #64
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Dogbone, I hear you. I loved your data post, and it seems to speak for itself. But sometimes, data just mumbles. Tell you what, next time I see Mike Levine, I'll ask him to settle the bet.
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      05-09-2018, 12:53 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarrantyTracker View Post
Dogbone, I hear you. I loved your data post, and it seems to speak for itself. But sometimes, data just mumbles. Tell you what, next time I see Mike Levine, I'll ask him to settle the bet.
I got one more for ya....just to make sure we don't have any mumbling or inconsistent data.

Below is the same chart setup as the previous charts. This one is from Auto Club Speedway. The banked Oval is run in a counter-clockwise direction. The speeds are high (over 150mph) and you are turning the steering wheel to the left for a long period of time. MDM is definitely on the case.

If our data is holding up, and MDM continues to work in a way that is consistent with all the other tracks we've looked at, we should be seeing MDM activating the Front-Passenger-side caliper while out on the Oval (0ft-3700ft). This would mildly encourage the car to want to rotate clockwise, which would counteract a potential counter-clockwise oversteer, with the steering wheel turned left.

Let's look at the chart and see what is being activated. In the pic below, we can clearly see that the Front-Passenger-side caliper is being activated by the MDM system for a long period of time out on the banked Oval---over 2200 feet, from 1300 ft thru 3500 ft. And again, nothing happening in the rear during that time.

Also, from 10000ft to 12000ft, we see another long stretch of Front-Passenger-side caliper activation by MDM. This is the Playground section at the end of the infield----another left-turning section. And again, nothing happening in the rear during this stretch either.



So now the data is very consistent across 6 tracks. I mean c'mon, am I really making some wild conclusions from this data? This is some fairly cut-and-dry data analysis. Don't make me pull up the Thunderhill charts!! (I've already looked......it's the same....front is doing almost all the MDM braking work.)
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      05-09-2018, 04:40 AM   #66
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>> ....front is doing almost all the MDM braking work.)

My experience is consistence with yours, Dog.

My front carbon ceramic brake pads were gone end of last summer after about 15 track days. As i already described, at NYST the traction control light was constantly on (poor driving but it was my first year on the track) and the rears were and are still fine. I expected the pads to last a lot more.

Until you showed us the data, i thought it was my braking, but now I believe that the front brakes were constantly on.

This year beside the first session i plan to have traction control off. so will see if brake pad wear would be different.
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