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      11-08-2018, 12:25 PM   #45
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The harness is a slippery slope, as some have mentioned. But especially for intermediate and novice drivers, because it prevents you from "sliding" around in your seat due to your lack of smoothness.

This one time...

I let a friend, who is basically a semi pro, since he's out racing for a semi-factory backed team almost on a bi-weekly basis, drive my car on track. I mean, the guy is pretty much one of THE fastest drivers I know, and I know a lot of very fast drivers. We were out at Buttonwillow BOOKING IT, catching the new FXX M3s and M4s with ease and passing like they're standing still in my little 330HP coupe on good day...And oh what a good glorious day it was.

Anyway. I remember the sensation of speed, but I did not remember being toss about in the MZ4 Coupe's bone stock seats and 3 point harnesses, because despite the massive G forces acting on the car, the transition from 0 to ~1.2 G of lateral force happens so smoothly (but quickly) you never feel like you're being toss about in the cabin. When you DO feel the G forces, it's when he brakes.

Really, if you're feeling like you NEED harnesses to keep you in your seat vs. a normal 3 point because you can't control your steering while driving on track, and you have like a dozen days on track? Either you're 6' tall and weigh 120 lbs, or you're not doing SOMETHING right.

This one other time...

I had a intermediate student once in a nice 135i. Young autocrosser, excellent car control skills. Very fast driver, but the whole day I can just tell that he CAN and should go faster if everything smoothed out. We were at Chuckwalla and he's got all sorts of instrumentation hooked up, I asked him what he wanted to achieve throughout the day, and he said he's basically hit a plateau with his lap times at Chuckwalla. So I told him I'm going to reset him, stop him from driving Chuckwalla sheerly through muscle memory, and get him to go faster by actually moving everything SLOWER, that when he's driving right, he won't barely notice or feel the car moving around.

I turned the screen for his data acquisition unit away from him, and in the second session I got him to slow down his hand inputs, and in the third session I got him to move his throttle up earlier, and sure enough, by the end of the third session, he was nearly 2 seconds faster than his fastest lap. In fact I can see the lap times drop every lap by about 1/2 second. He was absolutely FLOORED when I let him review his data, said it didn't feel like he was going faster but the lap times don't lie.

I mean, the slippery slope argument, that if you're going to harnesses you might as well go full on race seats, cages, remove interior and airbag...etc, I think it's valid. There's really no transition from a 3 point, factory seat, and airbag to fully stripped interior with bars and HANS. Every step in between is a compromise between and no better than factory setup. And there is a really good argument for a race car or time-trial car to have every single safety equipment in place. There's no argument there.

But if you're in a full interior, stock seat car with airbags? Just adding a 4 point clip in harness is only providing you the ILLUSION of safety and security, IMO.

Don't get me wrong. I've been there. I had a Schroth 4 point with anti-sub that I used with my E46 for several years as I was starting my HPDE career. So for me to tell y'all don't bother seems a little hypocritical...Or maybe I'm speaking from a point of experience, that it didn't really help me develop as a driver nor, in hindsight, made it safer.

I guess I'm lucky not having to find out about the second part, about it being safer or not.
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      11-08-2018, 02:48 PM   #46
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Regarding safety equipment, once you start going fast, proper 6 points + HANS is going to reduce a lot of stress, even if you never crash.

Here's what slamming into a wall at 70mph does to a fully caged car. Driver felt something off when he hit the brakes into a braking zone, left rear wheel came off and shot him into the wall.

This could of easily happened at an HPDE session. Straight up mechanical failure, having nothing to do with racing. Driver was transported to the hospital and checked out, sore and bruised but no injuries thanks to proper safety gear.

This is why I run a race seat + 6 point + HANS in my track car.


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      11-08-2018, 04:41 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_PDX View Post
Regarding safety equipment, once you start going fast, proper 6 points + HANS is going to reduce a lot of stress, even if you never crash.

Here's what slamming into a wall at 70mph does to a fully caged car. Driver felt something off when he hit the brakes into a braking zone, left rear wheel came off and shot him into the wall.

This could of easily happened at an HPDE session. Straight up mechanical failure, having nothing to do with racing. Driver was transported to the hospital and checked out, sore and bruised but no injuries thanks to proper safety gear.

This is why I run a race seat + 6 point + HANS in my track car.


Just this past weekend my friend was in an instructor's car they spun out and hit tire wall at 120 mph...
My friend was air lifted to hospital but only ended up with minor concussion, bruises and soreness.
I fully appreciate the safety equipment on a race car, and I wanted one, alas not everyone is in a position of owning a dedicated track car on top of their daily driver...
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      11-08-2018, 05:30 PM   #48
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This is why I run a race seat + 6 point + HANS in my track car.
Yep. When it comes to safety equipment, do it right or don't do it at all. Because if you're going to just slap on some 4 point belts that's attached to the seat belt clip in the rear seat, or child anchors, you're better off doing NOTHING because the factory 3 point works in conjunction with the curtain airbags much more effectively than a simple 4 point harness would do.

If you're going to do harnesses? Strip the interior. Put a full or half cage in it. Put in bucket seats designed to work with harnesses that puts them at the right angle in relation to your frame. Strap the harnesses to hard anchor points welded to the chassis (or in case of a bolted on cage, bolted). Wear a HANS.

Because all these things (cages, seats, harnesses, and HANS) are all designed as a system to work together, just like in a street car the airbags and the 3 point harnesses are designed to work together to minimize your chances of sever injury. But if you want to eliminate as much risk as possible? Strip the interior. Cage. Seats. 6 point. HANS.

There's really nothing in-between that will offer you BETTER protection than a factory system anyway. Not a race seat with 4 point harness clipped into factory anchors, or 6 point harness on factory seats, or 4 point harness bolted to floor anchors and a HANS and nothing else.

Actually I take that back, I've seen new HANS like devices that are designed to work with a 3 point harness that can potentially limit head and neck movement in the event of a collision. IF you must improve the safety of your vehicle while on track, but not willing to strip the interior and do it right? That sort of head/neck/shoulder protection is better than nothing, because you're adding easily 3-5 lbs of mass on top of your head when you wear a helmet.

That or don't crash into a wall at 120mph, but sometimes we don't have control over that.
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      11-08-2018, 06:55 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Yep. When it comes to safety equipment, do it right or don't do it at all. Because if you're going to just slap on some 4 point belts that's attached to the seat belt clip in the rear seat, or child anchors, you're better off doing NOTHING because the factory 3 point works in conjunction with the curtain airbags much more effectively than a simple 4 point harness would do.

If you're going to do harnesses? Strip the interior. Put a full or half cage in it. Put in bucket seats designed to work with harnesses that puts them at the right angle in relation to your frame. Strap the harnesses to hard anchor points welded to the chassis (or in case of a bolted on cage, bolted). Wear a HANS.

Because all these things (cages, seats, harnesses, and HANS) are all designed as a system to work together, just like in a street car the airbags and the 3 point harnesses are designed to work together to minimize your chances of sever injury. But if you want to eliminate as much risk as possible? Strip the interior. Cage. Seats. 6 point. HANS.

There's really nothing in-between that will offer you BETTER protection than a factory system anyway. Not a race seat with 4 point harness clipped into factory anchors, or 6 point harness on factory seats, or 4 point harness bolted to floor anchors and a HANS and nothing else.

Actually I take that back, I've seen new HANS like devices that are designed to work with a 3 point harness that can potentially limit head and neck movement in the event of a collision. IF you must improve the safety of your vehicle while on track, but not willing to strip the interior and do it right? That sort of head/neck/shoulder protection is better than nothing, because you're adding easily 3-5 lbs of mass on top of your head when you wear a helmet.

That or don't crash into a wall at 120mph, but sometimes we don't have control over that.
You’ve mentioned stripping the interior in conjunction with cage, seats, etc twice now so it definitely looks like that is an important part to you. When you have a minute can you please elaborate on what you consider essential to be removed for safety reasons and why?

I have a bolt in half cage, halo seats, & 6 pt harnesses going in within the next week. The only interior I planned on removing now we’re parts that conflicted with the new stuff (ie rear seats). Had planned to gut the interior if/when I made the move to full cage. My thought process is that all this is fairly easy to reverse if I end up putting her back out on the street. I don’t think that will happen but just to keep the option for now. If it’s best to do it now then time to work it in.

As a side note, do you like movies about gladiators?

Thanks!

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      11-12-2018, 12:43 AM   #50
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Here is a great video around improving safety for hpde and particularly with simpson hybrid s (the hans device you can use with stock 3pt seat belts).



But I do wonder given most stock safety systems are designed to protect occupants up to 60mph, whether having quickfit pro + simpson hybrid s can add additional safety for a stock car.
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      11-12-2018, 08:36 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardgtxy View Post
Here is a great video around improving safety for hpde and particularly with simpson hybrid s (the hans device you can use with stock 3pt seat belts).



But I do wonder given most stock safety systems are designed to protect occupants up to 60mph, whether having quickfit pro + simpson hybrid s can add additional safety for a stock car.
thanks for the vid. for someone running their street car a hybrid hans seems like a no brainer to improve the odds in a collision. i probably will look into getting one for the next season.

still unsure about the Schroth Quick Fit Pro though...
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      11-16-2018, 11:54 AM   #52
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dude.....I don't know how many times I've posted this over the years.

you can run the quick fit PRO. Make sure its the PRO version. Ppl get the standard and the PRO version mixed up every time. The PRO is DOT approved and NASA / PCA, the last time I checked, lets you run them. Like another member mentioned above, you can add a sub belt later if you want.

All it does is give you stability since it locks you down while going side to side and braking, etc but in the case of a crash the inner shoulder strap will "give" so that it acts like an oem 3 point.

so at the end of the day, it locks you in, AND in a crash, it's basically a three point oem seat belt.

On the lap belt side, it clips into the oem seat belt receptacle so if you crash, the oem seat belt receptacle will detonate and retract itself by two inches so that it synches your lap belt down against you (tightens to keep you down). At the same time, the inner shoulder strap will extend itself so that you fold over. This is exactly what your oem seat belt does.

You do, however, need to make sure you buy the correct model, and install and wear it properly. Schroth has tested the strength of oem seats for the model specific versions they have.

In my opinion, you're also in more control and more safe if you aren't wobbling around in your seat and have control of the steering with a light grip vs having to DEATH GRIP the wheel because you're sliding side to side.

In the end, you can take the information available and make a decision on your own.

Here's a video on quick fit PRO:



Here's a video of the Anti Submarine technology (vs without, vs 3 point):
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      11-16-2018, 12:04 PM   #53
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good post ^ Lots of misperception out there. The QFP is a great solution for those not wishing to go all out with cage and 6 point. I researched this and came to the same conclusion that you have.
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      11-16-2018, 01:59 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Number 86 View Post
dude.....I don't know how many times I've posted this over the years.

you can run the quick fit PRO. Make sure its the PRO version. Ppl get the standard and the PRO version mixed up every time. The PRO is DOT approved and NASA / PCA, the last time I checked, lets you run them. Like another member mentioned above, you can add a sub belt later if you want.

All it does is give you stability since it locks you down while going side to side and braking, etc but in the case of a crash the inner shoulder strap will "give" so that it acts like an oem 3 point.

so at the end of the day, it locks you in, AND in a crash, it's basically a three point oem seat belt.

On the lap belt side, it clips into the oem seat belt receptacle so if you crash, the oem seat belt receptacle will detonate and retract itself by two inches so that it synches your lap belt down against you (tightens to keep you down). At the same time, the inner shoulder strap will extend itself so that you fold over. This is exactly what your oem seat belt does.

You do, however, need to make sure you buy the correct model, and install and wear it properly. Schroth has tested the strength of oem seats for the model specific versions they have.

In my opinion, you're also in more control and more safe if you aren't wobbling around in your seat and have control of the steering with a light grip vs having to DEATH GRIP the wheel because you're sliding side to side.

In the end, you can take the information available and make a decision on your own.

Here's a video on quick fit PRO:



Here's a video of the Anti Submarine technology (vs without, vs 3 point):
thanks for your clarification.
again just trying to get myself educated here...

given what you said, the only downside with QFP (given it is installed / used properly), will be in the case of a rollover, where 3 points belt will let you bent while the QFP won't? (yes i'm familiar with the arguments that probability of flip is low compared to non-roll crash etc)
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      11-16-2018, 02:53 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by byroncheung View Post
thanks for your clarification.
again just trying to get myself educated here...

given what you said, the only downside with QFP (given it is installed / used properly), will be in the case of a rollover, where 3 points belt will let you bent while the QFP won't? (yes i'm familiar with the arguments that probability of flip is low compared to non-roll crash etc)
i'm assuming in the case of a rollover since one side extends there is some flopping around to some extent. There are different cases of roll overs that I've seen.

If you are preparing for 100mph barrel rolling 10+ times like the Blue Hornets, you are pushing more than most, and at that point you'll need full six point cage, with halo seats, and nets so your arms don't get chopped off, etc.

If you're talking about doing an HPDE event and in most cases that I've seen (eg taking an off, hitting the wall, and flopping over or hitting a ditch side ways and rolling over one or two times), modern cars have way more strength in the pillars. I've seen an EVO X roll forwards and the A pillar barely dented in.

In my opinion, running into a wall, or into someone else is more popular than a roll over in HPDE. I see that ALL the time
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      11-16-2018, 03:01 PM   #56
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i mean check out this guy lol

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      11-16-2018, 03:37 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Number 86 View Post
i'm assuming in the case of a rollover since one side extends there is some flopping around to some extent. There are different cases of roll overs that I've seen.

If you are preparing for 100mph barrel rolling 10+ times like the Blue Hornets, you are pushing more than most, and at that point you'll need full six point cage, with halo seats, and nets so your arms don't get chopped off, etc.

If you're talking about doing an HPDE event and in most cases that I've seen (eg taking an off, hitting the wall, and flopping over or hitting a ditch side ways and rolling over one or two times), modern cars have way more strength in the pillars. I've seen an EVO X roll forwards and the A pillar barely dented in.

In my opinion, running into a wall, or into someone else is more popular than a roll over in HPDE. I see that ALL the time
thanks. i tend to agree. i probably will get the QFP at some point. going to experiment with CG lock first...
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      11-16-2018, 04:54 PM   #58
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you can also lock the cam on the oem seat belt by doing the following:

slide your seat all the way back.
pull pull pull on the seat belt until it locks, then clip it into place (make sure it's pretty short and hard to clip in).
then slide your seat back into place. you'll be locked in like a CG lock is supposed to do.

the only problem is I don't know how the seat belts would react in an accident.
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      11-19-2018, 08:42 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Number 86 View Post
you can also lock the cam on the oem seat belt by doing the following:

slide your seat all the way back.
pull pull pull on the seat belt until it locks, then clip it into place (make sure it's pretty short and hard to clip in).
then slide your seat back into place. you'll be locked in like a CG lock is supposed to do.

the only problem is I don't know how the seat belts would react in an accident.
right, curious if someone would know how the seat belts will react in this setup... if the should belt wouldn't extend then might as well go with QFP
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      11-19-2018, 11:21 AM   #60
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i mean check out this guy lol

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      11-19-2018, 11:52 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_PDX View Post

This could of easily happened at an HPDE session. Straight up mechanical failure, having nothing to do with racing. Driver was transported to the hospital and checked out, sore and bruised but no injuries thanks to proper safety gear.

This is why I run a race seat + 6 point + HANS in my track car.
I've had brake mechanical failure on my M3 before. It was not fun. The brake master cylinder failed and was dragging the brakes the whole time on track. The brake pad went from full thickness to metal on metal in 2 laps and the brake fluid completely boiled. When I go to press the brakes, the pedal just goes to the floor. Luckily I caught it early on corner entry and was able to slow the car down with pumping the pedal and pulling the e brake.

It's not the fault of the driver nor maintenance (how can you predict a master cylinder going bad and locking out the brakes?). Unpredictable stuff happens all the time.
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