BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Software Modifications
 
European Auto Source (EAS)
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      05-23-2023, 10:36 AM   #1
Nautik
Captain
37
Rep
636
Posts

Drives: 2009 AW M3 DCT
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NoVA

iTrader: (0)

120k miles, 292 cams, stroker, or SC?

Hey all - I have a 2009 e92 M3. Bought it in 2011 and have used it as my daily ever since. Oil has been changed every 7500, rod bearings are done, VANOS replaced, got a new DCT transmission from BMW at 50k miles (thanks warranty!). All things considered, very little issues and a lot of fun.

I've done just about every bolt on I thought made sense. Apex wheels, suspension, brembo brakes, ARH headers/Xpipe, corsa muffler, dinan pully, eventuri intake, evolve tune.

Recently I've been stuck about what to do now... I like using it as my DD because it is just so practical and still pretty special and unique. You can't really buy anything new these days that is anything like it as far as I can tell. Here are the 3 options I came up after digging through the forums here over the weekend (maybe there are other options? yes, doing nothing is always an option):

40k option - Do I pull the trigger on a stoker from Carbahn? However, from the threads I've read here, is there much actual power gained? The earlier tests I've seen on this forum showed not really, the more current data shows there are significant gains with camshafts. But is it the stroker or really just the cams making the difference? Can I just get a set of 292 cams and keep my stock engine? Or is a stroker required to get the power out of the cams? Also, when boring out the engine and changing the stroke, you seem to now have a much less reliable engine over stock. I guess the question is, how much less reliable?

12k option - Do I just throw on a SC? I'm at 120k miles though and I'd like some occasional track days. Most folks, including my shop that races BMWs, say SC is just not a good option for track work because of heat soak. Is there something I can do to a 120k miles engine to make a SC less risky? Do I rebuild the engine then SC it? How much money do I need to spend on more cooling to do some track days?

5-7k option - Throw on some 292 cams and call it a day? There are a few good threads here on this but not much data I've seen on actual gains from pre cams and post cams. There are several posts swearing there is nothing to be gained with cams on the S65... Also, it sounds like a special tune is needed and who can do that, am I going to have to shop the car off somewhere?

Anyway, I'd definitely appreciate any feedback, especially if you have been down any of these paths. I'll add that just because one can buy something doesn't mean they like throwing money away, it still needs to make sense on the value/fun end of the equation
__________________
2009 e92 M3 - AW DCT - Apex Arc8s - Corsa
Appreciate 1
      05-23-2023, 12:05 PM   #2
Longboarder
Major General
Longboarder's Avatar
3374
Rep
6,765
Posts

Drives: 2016 BMW i8
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Monarch Beach

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
If I were in your shoes, I would try a much less expensive option first such as custom tune from Randy at Epic and see what he is comfortable with. Maybe he has had succes with cams and a higher (8,800+) rev limit. Maybe you could try a tune with a methanol injection option which provises a nice hit of octane and lower IATs which, if tuned right, can help NA engines a bit and you don't have to worry about always having the most expensive gasoline.

Anyway a before and after dyno measurement would be nice and so would a "dragy" run if you have a good place to test acceleration.
__________________
Current BMWs: 2021 X5M, 2012 e92 M3, 2022 X5 40i, 2016 X5 50i
2015 Porsche 991 Turbo S
a couple others
IG: longboarder949; YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT1...eoFBszPIK0gf9w
Appreciate 2
Nautik36.50
DrFerry6722.50
      05-23-2023, 12:14 PM   #3
Nautik
Captain
37
Rep
636
Posts

Drives: 2009 AW M3 DCT
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NoVA

iTrader: (0)

Thanks, much appreciated and I'll investigate!
__________________
2009 e92 M3 - AW DCT - Apex Arc8s - Corsa
Appreciate 0
      05-24-2023, 03:14 AM   #4
pumper206
80 Deep, We All Eat!!!
pumper206's Avatar
Taiwan
66
Rep
643
Posts

Drives: 2009 AW E92 M3
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Seattle,Wa

iTrader: (5)

I’m also debating whether I wanna go the 292 Cam route or not. I have all the bolt ons already minus long tube headers, which I will also install if I go 292 route.

After all my research, it seems like to maintain long term reliability + max engine performance + everyday driveability 292 Cams is the way to go. Now how much performance gains are to be had by upgrading to 292 Schrick Cams is debatable.

I really like how the 292 Schrick Cam upgrade is pretty much plug and play without having to mess with VANOS. Obviously a custom tune will be mandatory but that’s pretty minor.

Maybe I should just buy a S65B44, do an engine swap and call it a day…🤔

Thx for starting this thread!
Appreciate 0
      05-24-2023, 09:03 AM   #5
Nautik
Captain
37
Rep
636
Posts

Drives: 2009 AW M3 DCT
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NoVA

iTrader: (0)

I emailed with Randy at EPIC and from his experience, and assuming proper flow, cams are worth about 15 hp on a stock 4.0 S65.
__________________
2009 e92 M3 - AW DCT - Apex Arc8s - Corsa
Appreciate 3
      05-24-2023, 05:02 PM   #6
CamasM3e93
Friends don't let friends ESS
CamasM3e93's Avatar
No_Country
3118
Rep
848
Posts

Drives: '11 Lemans Blue 6mt Harrop e90
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Camas, WA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nautik View Post
I emailed with Randy at EPIC and from his experience, and assuming proper flow, cams are worth about 15 hp on a stock 4.0 S65.

Gosh what meager outcome for a not cheap intervention. My understanding is that the horsepower gains with cams is at the expense of torque so depending on how you intend to use the car it may not satisfy your butt dyno. May make sense for track driving and time trials but a disappointment for daily drivers.
Appreciate 1
DrFerry6722.50
      05-25-2023, 01:00 AM   #7
pumper206
80 Deep, We All Eat!!!
pumper206's Avatar
Taiwan
66
Rep
643
Posts

Drives: 2009 AW E92 M3
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Seattle,Wa

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CamasM3e93 View Post
Gosh what meager outcome for a not cheap intervention. My understanding is that the horsepower gains with cams is at the expense of torque so depending on how you intend to use the car it may not satisfy your butt dyno. May make sense for track driving and time trials but a disappointment for daily drivers.
Agreed. At the same time my objective is to try extract the most performance while maintaining the original design of the engine without any major modifications I.e. forced induction, increased engine displacement. In addition, I drive pretty aggressively on the regular keeping rpm’s within the engines ideal powerband 4000 and up when possible. To each there own tho….
Appreciate 1
CamasM3e933117.50
      05-25-2023, 07:12 AM   #8
CamasM3e93
Friends don't let friends ESS
CamasM3e93's Avatar
No_Country
3118
Rep
848
Posts

Drives: '11 Lemans Blue 6mt Harrop e90
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Camas, WA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by pumper206 View Post
Agreed. At the same time my objective is to try extract the most performance while maintaining the original design of the engine without any major modifications I.e. forced induction, increased engine displacement. In addition, I drive pretty aggressively on the regular keeping rpm’s within the engines ideal powerband 4000 and up when possible. To each there own tho….
Well then that makes cams the most obvious step. Circle back and let us know what you think.
Appreciate 1
      05-25-2023, 06:30 PM   #9
pumper206
80 Deep, We All Eat!!!
pumper206's Avatar
Taiwan
66
Rep
643
Posts

Drives: 2009 AW E92 M3
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Seattle,Wa

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CamasM3e93 View Post
Well then that makes cams the most obvious step. Circle back and let us know what you think.
Will do…
Appreciate 0
      05-26-2023, 09:53 AM   #10
Longboarder
Major General
Longboarder's Avatar
3374
Rep
6,765
Posts

Drives: 2016 BMW i8
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Monarch Beach

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
+15 hp if the engine is already FBO making near 400 wheel would be worth it to me. Especially if the tuner can safely manage a 8,800rpm rev limit/fuel cut.

I often consider something like this but also with considerable weight reduction. Stock, this is a 350 wheel (dynojet) and 3600 lb car. Mine is stock and on the vbox/dragy traps 113.X 1/4 mile as a reference. While we don't drag race, the 1/4 mile trap is a good reference point. At 415 wheel and 3300 lbs this is a completely different car and is getting a lot closer to 991.1 GT3 power to weight which is approx 435 wheel (dynojet) and 3150 lbs. I did a dragy run on mine the 1/4 mile trap was 126.X mph. For me, this was more than enough power at the track. I think an e9X at 415/3300 could be over 120mph trap.

Not sure what is the all-in price point to get an otherwise stock e92 to 415/3300 but realistically $25k-$30k ?? which I think is well worth it considering the other options for a nearly 9k rpm NA 4 liter screamer 120+ trap car.
__________________
Current BMWs: 2021 X5M, 2012 e92 M3, 2022 X5 40i, 2016 X5 50i
2015 Porsche 991 Turbo S
a couple others
IG: longboarder949; YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT1...eoFBszPIK0gf9w
Appreciate 2
M3SQRD1935.00
      05-26-2023, 05:03 PM   #11
Nautik
Captain
37
Rep
636
Posts

Drives: 2009 AW M3 DCT
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NoVA

iTrader: (0)

Thoughts on stroker with or without the 292 cams? Carbahn recommended without the 292 cams so I don't give up the extra torque down low. However, something just seems cool about max HP on a NA motor.

Seems about 40lbs at 4000rpm vs 30hp at around 8000rpm based on their dyno. Granted, that's 100 octane fuel. You can also see the hp falling off at high rpm without the cams which I think SYT_Shadow has commented on in his threads.

https://carbahn.com/product/s65-4-6l...-engine-kit-2/
__________________
2009 e92 M3 - AW DCT - Apex Arc8s - Corsa
Appreciate 1
      08-07-2023, 11:07 PM   #12
pumper206
80 Deep, We All Eat!!!
pumper206's Avatar
Taiwan
66
Rep
643
Posts

Drives: 2009 AW E92 M3
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Seattle,Wa

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nautik View Post
Thoughts on stroker with or without the 292 cams? Carbahn recommended without the 292 cams so I don't give up the extra torque down low. However, something just seems cool about max HP on a NA motor.

Seems about 40lbs at 4000rpm vs 30hp at around 8000rpm based on their dyno. Granted, that's 100 octane fuel. You can also see the hp falling off at high rpm without the cams which I think SYT_Shadow has commented on in his threads.

https://carbahn.com/product/s65-4-6l...-engine-kit-2/
I get torque down low but when are you “driving” the car at low rpms? My favorite rpms are 4K and up for this engine. I mean that’s how this engine was built to run, right(in terms of peak performance)? Not sure why low end torque matters so much. Just my .02 As always, to each their own. Im much more interested in max HP on this NA motor. Feel like it’s much more benificial on the track.
Appreciate 0
      08-08-2023, 02:51 AM   #13
SYT_Shadow
///M Powered for Life
SYT_Shadow's Avatar
11421
Rep
10,296
Posts

Drives: E90M/E92M/M4GTS/M4GT4/X5M
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenwich, CT

iTrader: (2)

I would never build a stroker without the 292 cams. Carbahn did a great job on the stroker but they don't even offer tuning for it.

With 292 cams thr stroker has plenty of low end torque due to double vanos and proper tuning. If anything, I wish 304 cams were available that maintained double vanos because I would have used those.
Appreciate 2
DrFerry6722.50
      08-08-2023, 05:52 AM   #14
amrazM
mTekMods
amrazM's Avatar
United_States
2115
Rep
2,872
Posts

Drives: like a granny.
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Manhatan

iTrader: (1)

i've come to realize people who say they want to take the car to an occasional track day usually never end up going to the track, put a ess-625 kit on the car and the car will be 10000x more fun on the street.
__________________
2011 Frozen Black/Fox Red E90 M3 650+WHP

G-Power Supercharged
First DCT to Manual Conversion Worldwide
KW CS, BBS RI-A, BW Headers, Snow 2.5
Appreciate 0
      08-08-2023, 01:07 PM   #15
SYT_Shadow
///M Powered for Life
SYT_Shadow's Avatar
11421
Rep
10,296
Posts

Drives: E90M/E92M/M4GTS/M4GT4/X5M
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenwich, CT

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrazM View Post
i've come to realize people who say they want to take the car to an occasional track day usually never end up going to the track, put a ess-625 kit on the car and the car will be 10000x more fun on the street.
I've driven supercharged M3s on the street as well as my own stroker. The stroker sounds massively better, it is not in the same ballpark.

Stroker with cams and a karbonius airbox is really something
Appreciate 0
      08-08-2023, 04:37 PM   #16
omgzirra_exe
Lieutenant Colonel
omgzirra_exe's Avatar
United_States
1423
Rep
1,629
Posts

Drives: 4.4L M3, IS300
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Long Beach, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
I've driven supercharged M3s on the street as well as my own stroker. The stroker sounds massively better, it is not in the same ballpark.

Stroker with cams and a karbonius airbox is really something
yeah i'm currently prepared to do 292s in the 4.4L since i have vac headwork done as well.

or give up and just supercharge it (been driving on the street more these days than on a race track)

what ever it is... it wont happen until i need to do my VCG again or my VC leaks lol.
__________________
Build: ZillaSpec M3 N1 Build
M3Post Track General Discussion: Discord
#fakeGTS
Appreciate 0
      08-09-2023, 06:07 AM   #17
amrazM
mTekMods
amrazM's Avatar
United_States
2115
Rep
2,872
Posts

Drives: like a granny.
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Manhatan

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
I've driven supercharged M3s on the street as well as my own stroker. The stroker sounds massively better, it is not in the same ballpark.

Stroker with cams and a karbonius airbox is really something
correct these two things are not in the same ballpark and not comparable so why compare them, a stroker with cams and a karbonius airbox is what $20k+? A bolt on 625 kit these days is trading for $6000 at most plus another $1k for a tune. not taking away from the greatness of a stroker with a carbon airbox, just making the point of accessibility to the guy with the 120k mile M3.
__________________
2011 Frozen Black/Fox Red E90 M3 650+WHP

G-Power Supercharged
First DCT to Manual Conversion Worldwide
KW CS, BBS RI-A, BW Headers, Snow 2.5
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:27 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST