Still want an EV?

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

You'll have to show me the math that says the Model3P is less expensive to own than a Camry.

https://insideevs.com/features/52746...amry-cost/amp/

It’s a pretty comprehensive analysis.

Shawn

[BGM-M3COMP]

Lmaoooo

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

https://insideevs.com/features/52746...amry-cost/amp/

It’s a pretty comprehensive analysis.

Shawn

That's link is an article from 2021..things change...


Here's a related article from 2023...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/co...and-tesla-bmw/
Electric cars losing their value twice as fast as petrol alternatives

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

That's link is an article from 2021..things change...


Here's a related article from 2023...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/co...and-tesla-bmw/
Electric cars losing their value twice as fast as petrol alternatives

BMW’s lose value very fast too. Doesn’t dissuade people. It’s just one part of ownership.

Again, electrics aren’t the solution for everyone. But they are the solution for some. I’ve had seven, but all had back up gas engines. The ability to cruise around town on nothing but electric really decreases total cost.

Shawn

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

https://insideevs.com/features/52746...amry-cost/amp/

It’s a pretty comprehensive analysis.

Shawn

Lol. Typical, a video of someone else's math, not yours.

The claim is Tesla's claim (and math). 4 minutes into the video and no math. The video chat boy then throws up figures that he does not back up with calculations. And he assumes $2,000 miles in maintenance for the Camery over 60,000 miles, which is utter nonsense. Secondly the video compares a Model 3 LR, not a M3P. And the video chatboy's math shows just one cent cost per-mile difference.

Tesla said its operating cost per mile is $0.55 (55 cents) for 60,000 miles "which is half of a typical ICE car". Utter nonsense. Using the prices in the video for the Model 3 LR ($41K) and the Camry ($25K), the cost per mile just to amortize the sale price alone of each over 60,000 miles shows the Camery at $0.41 (41 cents) and the Model 3 LR at $0.68 (68 cents) per mile.

[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Lol. Typical, a video of someone else's math, not yours.

The claim is Tesla's claim (and math). 4 minutes into the video and no math. The video chat boy then throws up figures that he does not back up with calculations. And he assumes $2,000 miles in maintenance for the Camery over 60,000 miles, which is utter nonsense. Secondly the video compares a Model 3 LR, not a M3P. And the video chatboy's math shows just one cent cost per-mile difference.

Tesla said its operating cost per mile is $0.55 (55 cents) for 60,000 miles "which is half of a typical ICE car". Utter nonsense. Using the prices in the video for the Model 3 LR ($41K) and the Camry ($25K), the cost per mile just to amortize the sale price alone of each over 60,000 miles shows the Camery at $0.41 (41 cents) and the Model 3 LR at $0.68 (68 cents) per mile.

Of course not my math. Don’t have a Tesla. But $2000 over 60,000 miles is not “utter nonsense”. Unless you DIY, it could easily be that. Even if you DIY, one set of tires can push it to that.

You can argue the figures if you want, but it’s within realm. Too many people back that up, including me. My hybrids TCO’s are much smaller than the corresponding regular. The increase in cost over the regular is cancelled out over time.

Shawn

[BGM-M3COMP]

I love spending only 8 bucks or so to charge my car

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

Of course not my math. Don’t have a Tesla. But $2000 over 60,000 miles is not “utter nonsense”. Unless you DIY, it could easily be that. Even if you DIY, one set of tires can push it to that.

You can argue the figures if you want, but it’s within realm. Too many people back that up, including me. My hybrids TCO’s are much smaller than the corresponding regular. The increase in cost over the regular is cancelled out over time.

Shawn

So here is the issue, the math comparing TOC in cents per mile can't include insurance because insurance has too many variables that determine the cost. Those being the owner's driving record and who he insures for the car (i.e. young household drivers), his zip code, and the amounts of coverage he chooses. Plus, insurance has no bearing on how much it costs to operate the car.

To compare TOC (total operating costs) between cars, the operating costs are the amortization of the car's price + loan cost over miles driven (60,000 in this case), maintenance + repairs over miles driven, and fuel cost purchased per mile (60,000 miles in this case), and depreciation (if you sell the car at 5 years/60,000 miles in this case). So, Tesla's claim the Model 3 LR costs $0.55 cents per mile, which it stated is less than half of a comparable ICE car. That means Tesla thinks the ICE car costs $1.10 per mile to operate to 60,000 miles in 5 years. For comparison sakes my 2006 BMW E90 cost $0.79 (79 cents in 2023 dollars) per mile to 60,000 miles. Now, it took me just 2 years and 5 months to reach 60,000. In 5 years when I paid it off, the E90 cost me just $0.62 (62 cents in 2023 dollars) per mile when I reached 144,711 miles (at fill up #417 on 5/31/2011). That's real-world data for a BMW at 27 MPG using premium fuel.

Regarding the Camry's $2,000 maintenance, I can see maybe $1,000 for 1 spark plug change and 6 oil changes (@ $75 each). Most modern ICE cars need plugs at 100,000 mile intervals, not 60,000. If videochat boy's number includes tires, then I'd have to pull them out because tires have nothing to do with ICE vs. EV maintenance. Brakes maybe an issue with the Camry, but at 60,000 miles I'd think not; 75,000 maybe it'd need them.

Regardless, I still want to see the math. The $15K price delta between the Camry and Tesla gives the Toyota a 143,000-mile head start in free miles. Again rough numbers.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by gblansten

Well said. No perfect vehicles for anyone at all times.

But people do buy vehicles that are MOSTLY perfect for them, or they'd not buy it.

[shawnhayes]

Insurance and tires are big parts of a car ownership. So if you’re just gonna “throw them out”, let’s just throw out the base price of the car.

I see you’re going to argue your point with whatever is “convenient” to throw out that day, you’re never going to see the other side of the argument.

Hundreds of thousands of buyers do. If you don’t want to, fine. But don’t pretend that the rest of us are stupid for buying an electric car, or electrified version.

Shawn

[ASAP]

I mean simple math... the most cost efficient option is and always will be a 2 year old Toyota Corolla... if you are not doing that, then you are not using the most cost efficient option.

However, I will argue a Tesla model 3 is by nature a fast car so that doesn't make it comparable even if you discount the electric drivetrain.

A fair comparo for a base model 3 MAY be a Camry Hybrid which again isn't exactly comparable but still holds a near 10K price advantage...

The model 3 is a good option if you want to explore EVs but it holds no true cost advantage no matter what blabber anyone tells you.

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

BMW’s lose value very fast too. Doesn’t dissuade people. It’s just one part of ownership.

Again, electrics aren’t the solution for everyone. But they are the solution for some. I’ve had seven, but all had back up gas engines. The ability to cruise around town on nothing but electric really decreases total cost.

Shawn

No one buys a bmw to save money..tesla model 3 on the other hand...
and depreciation is part of the ownership cost experience. I like cruising in all electric too..in a car that's well built and has little road noise etc..no point in having electric silence when suspension noise and road noise from wheel arches is a problem.

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

Insurance and tires are big parts of a car ownership. So if you’re just gonna “throw them out”, let’s just throw out the base price of the car.

I see you’re going to argue your point with whatever is “convenient” to throw out that day, you’re never going to see the other side of the argument.

Hundreds of thousands of buyers do. If you don’t want to, fine. But don’t pretend that the rest of us are stupid for buying an electric car, or electrified version.

Shawn

I mean most buyers don't buy it for the performance or the interior or the ride quality or the environment. Most imo buy it as it saves a couple of hundred bucks in fuel per month. And I do think that people buying ev to save money unless they're doing mega Mile's aren't that clever.
Even yesterday a friend whose just bought a model y was raving about how his y takes £7 in electricity costs to fill up for 250 miles and that the merc it replaced would cost £ 24. The math is fine until you realise that he's replaced a 7 year old merc in perfect working order and little to no depreciation with a 45k vehicle to save a bit of cash.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

Insurance and tires are big parts of a car ownership. So if you’re just gonna “throw them out”, let’s just throw out the base price of the car.

I see you’re going to argue your point with whatever is “convenient” to throw out that day, you’re never going to see the other side of the argument.

Hundreds of thousands of buyers do. If you don’t want to, fine. But don’t pretend that the rest of us are stupid for buying an electric car, or electrified version.

Shawn

Both cars use tires, that's why when comparing EV to ICE the tires should not be included in the cost difference in maintenance (cost) of an ICE drivetrain vs. EV. So, you missed the point intirely.

Regarding insurance, all owners are required to carry insurance. But insurance is a highly individualized cost mostly dependent upon the owner's and household family drivers driving records and ages, plus the zip code the vehicle is housed. And insurance has no bearing on operating cost especially between ICE and EV, which is why it should not be included in comparisons between ICE/EV cars. Now, it could be argued that recent internet reports say EV cost more to insure due to their propensity to be totaled in minor accidents because of the risk of fire hazard due to minor damage to the battery. So by leaving insurance out of the math actually HELPS the Teslas argument.

But typically people belive the internet math (from Tesla in this case) that EV are less expensive than ICE. I've done detailed equations on the subject for over a decade, in most cases, EV are not less expensive in TOC. In rare cases yes, but in general no, especially between a Camry and Model 3. Even in the BS video, the difference was stated at +1-cent per mile for Tesla. 1 cent is well within any statistical margin of error and certainly doesn't justify the inconvenience EV require to own (range anxiety and recharge time).

And regarding the Carmy's maintenance to 60,000 from Toyota's website: 6 engine oil changes, 1 engine air filter, 3 cabin air filters. That's it. Lol. Plugs are 120,000 mile service interval. Coolant at 100,000 miles (Tesla has coolant too). No other driveline maintenance up to 120,000 miles.

And the video chatboy then goes on to discuss Tesla FSD which is a $15,000 option, making the plain Jane Model 3 $56K, not $41K, and even the tax credit is just $3,750. Use those numbers and the chatboy's formulas and the Tesla is $0.62 per mile vs. the Camry's $0.51 per mile making the Tesla $7,065 more costly to own to 60,000 miles.

[gonzo]

I'm 99.9% sure if we kicked Powell and Yellen to the curb, Ef30 could do BOTH their jobs MUCH better.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

I mean most buyers don't buy it for the performance or the interior or the ride quality or the environment. Most imo buy it as it saves a couple of hundred bucks in fuel per month. And I do think that people buying ev to save money unless they're doing mega Mile's aren't that clever.
Even yesterday a friend whose just bought a model y was raving about how his y takes £7 in electricity costs to fill up for 250 miles and that the merc it replaced would cost £ 24. The math is fine until you realise that he's replaced a 7 year old merc in perfect working order and little to no depreciation with a 45k vehicle to save a bit of cash.

That's why my E90 has 420,000 miles on it. It's still worth it to repair than buy new. It's currently at $0.31 per mile. INCLUDING tires. Lol.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by gonzo

I'm 99.9% sure if we kicked Powell and Yellen to the curb, Ef30 could do BOTH their jobs MUCH better.

What? And take a pay cut? Nahhhh.

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

That's why my E90 has 420,000 miles on it. It's still worth it to repair than buy new. It's currently at $0.31 per mile. INCLUDING tires. Lol.

I read somewhere about how people look at a guy in a new range rover and a guy in an old golf.
The former appears rich but is £100,000 poorer as he's leased the car and the latter appears poor but is richer by £100,000 than the former.
Perspectives....