Official S65 Rod Bearing Condition Example Thread

[IamFODI]

Originally Posted by RedScytheM3

Are either of you qualified to debate the intricacies of bearing wear?

I'm not in the habit of throwing personal information around on the Internet. Arguments stand or fall on their own.

To wit:

1. A bunch of pages back in this thread, I took issue with the idea that 702/703 bearings were bimetal Al/Sn. That idea originally came from BE Bearings, who are reasonably considered the definitive experts on this topic, and was taken as gospel. My criticism wasn't based on esoteric industry info or advanced knowledge; just some extremely basic and easily available facts -- e.g. that bimetal Al/Sn bearings don't tend to discolor like 702/703s do, even when hideously worn. In the ensuing discussion, deansbimmer posted clear evidence that the bearings were in fact trimetal. Later, BE ended up changing the word bimetal to trimetal in the relevant section of their wiki.

2. I also suggested that the nature of the discoloration on 702/703 bearings wasn't really known, and thus the widespread belief that it represented wear through the outer layer -- also promulgated by some of the most qualified and rightly respected people here -- wasn't necessarily true. Again, this was based on some extremely simple observations, e.g. that no one seemed to know what these bearings were really made of or had sufficient evidence that the discoloration was more than superficial. A bunch of pages later, Assimilator1 sands down the discolored portion of a used 702/703 bearing and finds plenty of outer layer left before he hits copper.

Everything I have pointed out since then boils down not to confident assertions that I know what's going on, but simply to the fact that we can no longer assume we know what we're seeing in pics of 702/703 bearings.

So, if your point is that people shouldn't be making assertions they're not qualified to make, we are 100% on the same page.

[Green-Eggs]

Originally Posted by IamFODI

1. A bunch of pages back in this thread, I took issue with the idea that 702/703 bearings were bimetal Al/Sn. That idea originally came from BE Bearings, who are reasonably considered the definitive experts on this topic, and was taken as gospel. My criticism wasn't based on esoteric industry info or advanced knowledge; just some extremely basic and easily available facts -- e.g. that bimetal Al/Sn bearings don't tend to discolor like 702/703s do, even when hideously worn. The ensuing discussion, in which deansbimmer posted clear evidence that the bearings were in fact trimetal, evidently led to BE "updating" the info on their wiki (really just changing the word bimetal to trimetal).

I think you're forgetting about this post of your own which came in response to the change in wording at the BE wiki. The change came after Bert personally spoke to Glyco and was given official proof. What he didn't tell you is why he was speaking to Glyco in the first place, and how he got in touch with somebody who had first-hand knowledge of the BMW bearing design. So no, Bert didn't change the bearing wiki because he your posts on the internet. LOL.
https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...postcount=1537

During that phone call, the Glyco design guy also confirmed the actual BMW bearing clearance specs to Bert. Surprise, surprise: his empirical research was spot-on the whole time!

[IamFODI]

Originally Posted by Green-Eggs

I think you're forgetting about this post of your own which came in response to the change in wording at the BE wiki. The change came after Bert personally spoke to Glyco and was given official proof. What he didn't tell you is why he was speaking to Glyco in the first place, and how he got in touch with somebody who had first-hand knowledge of the BMW bearing design. So no, Bert didn't change the bearing wiki because he your posts on the internet. LOL.
https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...postcount=1537

That post came after the discussion I was referring to -- months after the initial concerns were raised and close-up pics were posted. And it referenced this comment from you:

Originally Posted by Green-Eggs

After seeing this thread, Bert changed the wiki to correct the information.

...which confirms that the change happened after the discussion in the thread.

That said, you're absolutely right that timelines don't imply causation. I'll correct my post accordingly.

[mapster37]

08 approx 70k miles on original bearings. replaced with BE bearings/bolts

[IamFODI]

@Assimilator1 (not sure why but I can't seem to get the tag to stick)

Got a few answers from Glyco that I can share. No slam-dunks but one point on which you were right and I was wrong, plus a couple more points of interest.

Direct quote from email:

Originally Posted by Glyco

Micro grooves are only present in some aluminum bearings and they do help hold lubrication and remove materials.

When the bearing wears, yes the grooves will disappear where there is more wear. I don’t think this will be a critical issue.

Discoloration by itself should not be a major issue. Many of the materials will form a thin oxide film that will change the color.

[Bigtriece]

2010 with 102k. Really glad I changed them as soon as I got the car.

[stefan_e36]

as I wrote above I managed to order the BE bearings last year, and in first dates of January a received the massage, that it's ready, and now I'm waiting when its arrived by plane in Ukraine.
Next stage is to install them on my car with OEM bolts, hope that everything will be OK)
thanks for https://shop.redline360.com/

[DrFerry]

At 117,685 miles I finally got the rod bearings replaced with BE Bearings and BE spec ARP bolts. Marcus Schall - of Schall Motorsports in Spartanburg South Carolina - did a perfect job, as well as took care of some other small issues the car needed done, such as replacing the header tank return vent pipe, installing new Vibra Technics engine mounts, and lubricating one of the frozen Harrop super charger drive belt idler pulleys.

If you live in the Southeast, and need rod bearings replaced, I highly recommend you consider using Schall Motorsports. Marcus Schall is a professional BMW Technician from Europe, is highly knowledgeable regarding M3s as well as being a true Car-Guy enthusiast.

I was quite anxious about getting the job done, having owned the car since new (2008), the added complexity of the blower sitting atop the engine, and my being very attached to the car. But Marcus provided prompt communications, answered all my questions, and was patient and generous with his time. On top of all that, the car runs perfectly.

https://www.schallmotorsport.com/

2008 BMW M3 (E92), 117,685 Miles, 10W60 Castrol TWS with 0W40 Mobil-1 top ups until 96K miles, then 5W50 Mobil-1 FS X2. HARROP Super Charger installed at 70K miles. Now back using 10W60 TWS with the new BE rod bearings.

Below are a few images of the install and the old OEM rod bearings.

[TX]

A huge thanks to tdott for the truly great work replacing my rod bearings. A huge shout out. Outstanding guy. Extremely professional and honest guy all around. Highly recommended.


09 70k miles. BE installed:

Any thoughts about the odd wear off center on the lower shells?












blackstone report:









Engine has always run Castrol TWS 10W60 Or Shell Helix Ultra 10W60 / BMW Twin Power once or twice. Oil samples started and were maintained after 37K miles. Car has been driven by me after ~15K miles. Never tracked.

I'm really interested in opinions on the wear pattern. Thanks

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by TX

Engine has always run Castrol TWS 10W60 Or Shell Helix Ultra 10W60 / BMW Twin Power once or twice. Oil samples started and were maintained after 49K miles. Car has been driven by me after ~15K miles. Never tracked.

Just curious, prefer Castrol to Shell or just as it happens?

[TX]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

Just curious, prefer Castrol to Shell or just as it happens?

Hello Helmsman,

At one point in time I thought the Shell Helix was a better oil so I switched to it for 2 oil changes, then got that spike in lead along with a million arguments over oils and how the Shell was or was not a better oil. That combined with the recent 12 case deal on the Castrol from amazon for $100 - I couldn't pass it up so that is what went back in with the new BE bearings.
It's been a dream for nearly 2 years for BE and almost the last year just waiting for the parts so it's truly a happy day. I'm glad they are out. #8 doesn't look too healthy.

[TX]

I thought there were missing oil reports. I found an earlier one so I amended my post above for the full history. The original sample was concerning. It was the first one done by me after the dealer maintenance plan expired so clearly I had much better luck with my intervals and service after that first drain. I've always wondered if the dealer was leaving half the old oil in the car or just not changing it.

[Mhouse]

BE bearings with 4k miles on them?!

[TX]

Originally Posted by Mhouse

BE bearings with 4k miles on them?!

ok I'll bite....what the...f? Troy is a respected engine builder..

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by TX

ok I'll bite....what the...f? Troy is a respected engine builder..

Not sure I understand the reasoning; need to be even more careful when using BE - why would that be? I'd assume knowing what you're doing is a must regardless of shell.
Also, tons of shells has been replaced by now, some by various shops, some by DIY, and no big signs it goes to h.

[Hondaman23]

Originally Posted by DrFerry

At 117,685 miles I finally got the rod bearings replaced with BE Bearings and BE spec ARP bolts. Marcus Schall - of Schall Motorsports in Spartanburg South Carolina...

Are you saying these have never been changed? The old ones look like BE bearings! I must be confused as to which are old/new...

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

Not sure I understand the reasoning; need to be even more careful when using BE - why would that be? I'd assume knowing what you're doing is a must regardless of shell.
Also, tons of shells has been replaced by now, some by various shops, some by DIY, and no big signs it goes to h.

I think there is some personal bad blood between Troy Jeup and BE IIRC.

Such is life. BE don't make bearings. Clevite makes bearings following BE spec. So I am not sure what scientific point Troy is basing his statements on.

Cheers,

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by TX

ok I'll bite....what the...f? Troy is a respected engine builder..

Is he?

https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...ndor-Troy-Jeup

https://www.m5board.com/threads/dont...y-jeup.599570/

https://www.m5board.com/threads/troy...edback.303241/

He no longer has a website. Just IG and Facebook. Given the above, I would not trust him with my money.

Cheers,

[TX]

Good digging. I stand corrected. Thank you sir.

[Green-Eggs]

Originally Posted by TX

ok I'll bite....what the...f? Troy is a respected engine builder..

When BE started, there were two well known vendors who wanted to be primary investors. Both were told, "thanks, but no thanks." Troy was one of them and was especially obnoxious in his response. The other is in Southern California and won't even let somebody use BE Bolts if the car comes to his shop for rod bearing service. So take what either say with a grain of salt. If either vendor wants to challenge this story, Bert has the emails to back it up.

[TX]

Apparently these are BE pulled with 28K miles. They look pretty good if they are BE.
https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...0&postcount=79

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by Hondaman23

Are you saying these have never been changed?

Yes.