Track forum general chit chat.

[Ximian]

Originally Posted by leftfootbr8king

Ross Bentley would disagree with you.

Just because 99% of people can’t trailbrake a corner effectively doesn’t mean they shouldn’t try.

Disagree with what specifically? There's a whole edition of Speed Secrets where Ross and guests discuss that you can't use the same approach for every corner of the same type. Or the repeat Colin Braun example of him extending a braking zone being quicker in that instance compared to a teammate that was late braking.

Remember there's nuance in this type of driving, that's why it's not as easy as following a few simple recommendations.

[okusa]

Originally Posted by Ximian

What approach exactly?

Trail braking.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by M1500Z

To attempt to tie a bow on this, I spent some time chatting and looking at data with rhyary and I think this is related to both of my issues of speed and wear. His theory which I believe has merit is that I'm loosing speed at entry by over-slowing, which leads to me not maintaining weight on the front of the car further into corners giving up mid-corner speed, and lastly getting on the throttle earlier to compensate and scrubbing the tires with oversteer on the exit. This aligns with with your saying chocstraw.

It makes sense and gives me some things to try in the future. I think I may have another weekend or so on those SC3 Rs, especially if I slow down a bit and work on getting the car rotated more during the entry/mid corner phase so I can unwind the steering more when getting back on throttle.

Not trying to be a dick but if you are slower on faster tires then you need to stick with slower tires. The problem you are describing could be many things and I'd bet that all of them are technique and skill related. You are depending on the grip of the tire to make you go faster instead of knowing where to utilize the grip so you can go faster.

What most intermediate drivers get wrong is going from brake to throttle. I'd argue that more than the points where you are on and off the pedals, its likely how you release and squeeze the pedals. 8 out of 10 intermediate drivers stomp the brake pedal and have no feel. If you have grippy tires then it makes that learning curve MUCH harder.

I had a student in a semi-stripped out stock powered E36 M3 that runs faster lap times than cars with 3 times the horsepower. We had to overcome the whole threshold brake and make it feel like a boat anchor until you can turn it in and then get back on the throttle.

Why are we talking about trail braking? Trail braking is not an answer here. Novices trail brake and they are slow. I'm sorry, focusing on trail braking better ain't gonna fix anything. Think traction circle, staying on the outside of the traction circle. Again, technique in squeezing and applying the brake/throttle, managing the weight transfer and once you get that feel down where you can arrest understeer NOT BY WHERE but HOW you come off the brake pedal, then we can talk about being really good at trailbraking.

Typically my passengers can not feel feel when I come off the brake pedal and get back onto the throttle. The only tell is the exhaust noise. When I instruct, I'm grading intermediates on what I can feel when they come off the brakes. When I can't feel anything then we can talk about turning and braking, trail braking differently, and throttle steering. Until then the student doesn't have the skills and technique to safely utilize those advanced tools.

[Ximian]

Originally Posted by okusa

Trail braking.

Not sure where the disconnect is but I wasn't opposing trail braking. I was solely opposed to "move my braking zone a little deeper" being a good idea for someone having issues with overslowing. They could be trailing braking correctly but have the issue of scrubbing off too much speed before the turn-in.

That person can keep their same braking reference point and entire braking zone, just use less of the brake pedal. It'll accomplish the same thing, they'll be quicker than they were, and will have a better idea of what the car should feel like while turning. Thus the more comfortable approach for everyone, including other people on track.

[leftfootbr8king]

Originally Posted by Ximian

Disagree with what specifically? There's a whole edition of Speed Secrets where Ross and guests discuss that you can't use the same approach for every corner of the same type. Or the repeat Colin Braun example of him extending a braking zone being quicker in that instance compared to a teammate that was late braking.

Remember there's nuance in this type of driving, that's why it's not as easy as following a few simple recommendations.

There’s no right answer with some of you guys. The theory of trail braking a corner isn’t a specific approach and nothing anyone writes on here for driving theory is as easily done as it is said.

I didn’t say “trail brake every corner the same way” but I apologize if that’s how it came across.

[okusa]

Sorry, didn’t mean to come across as argumentative. I don’t see a disconnect really. Someone that is overslowing either has to carry more speed or brake later. What other options are there? Carrying more speed and braking earlier won’t help the situation, so to me the answer is learn to trail brake.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by leftfootbr8king

I guess if you define trail braking as simply “trailing off the brakes” in a straight line then sure, that’s not the solution.

How I was taught, understand and practice trailbraking is more of a comprehensive approach to cornering.


In his situation, if I were over slowing corners and having to get on the throttle too early thus creating a situation where I didn’t have enough weight over front tires to rotate the car I’d first move my braking zone a little deeper, to make sure I didn’t over slow. In an early apex corner that might be all that is needed. In a corner with a later apex I would include trailing off the brakes to mid corner to rotate the back end a bit while keeping weight over the front tires. Done correctly when it’s time to apply some throttle the wheel won’t be pinched.

By definition trail braking isn’t trailing off in a straight line, I assumed you’d know that. Sorry I was not explicit.

Also braking deeper isn’t the solution as it will result in overslowing for 99% of amateurs. Your boy Bentley explicitly states this in some of his latest corner convos.

The goal is to carry more speed through the corner. A blanket “me, trail brake” grunt grunt. Is nonsensical.

[derbo]

Originally Posted by Cmassey3

Based on this fender liner diagram, there's two potential spots it could be in the liner, either section 10 or section 16.

https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=51_5862

I haven't poked around yet to find out.

10 doesn't exist in M fenders but exists in non-M ones.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by okusa

Sorry, didn’t mean to come across as argumentative. I don’t see a disconnect really. Someone that is overslowing either has to carry more speed or brake later. What other options are there? Carrying more speed and braking earlier won’t help the situation, so to me the answer is learn to trail brake.

You can brake earlier, just brake less.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by DRLane

By definition trail braking isn’t trailing off in a straight line, I assumed you’d know that. Sorry I was not explicit.

Also braking deeper isn’t the solution as it will result in overslowing for 99% of amateurs. Your boy Bentley explicitly states this in some of his latest corner convos.

The goal is to carry more speed through the corner. A blanket “me, trail brake” grunt grunt. Is nonsensical.

Theory...one thing working against newer drivers is a current 200 treadwear tire outperforms most r-comps from 10 years ago. To the contrary, it makes drivers slower.

Observation...When I started, local track, MSR Houston - 2008-ish most intermediate drivers were around 1:50-1:52, I was running 1:47s in advanced and was in the upper 3rd. Fast forward to today same DE org, I can't find an advanced DE driver that is running below 1:50.

Maybe I am getting old but the better the tires, nannies and overall car gets, the slower the driver seems to be.

[leftfootbr8king]

I know the definition of trail braking and explained it in some detail because it seemed like you didn’t. Glad we’re on the same page now.

I had a coach teach me trail braking at VIR a few years ago. We discussed how to apply the theory to each corner that it would be useful in. It’s a basic theory with nuance to each specific corner. One session in and I was starting to feel it work for me. Over the course of a few days I gradually shaved off a decent amount of time because of it.

Grunt grunt

“Don’t work to achieve a driving style that will ultimately see you achieve the fastest lap times because you’re an amateur and you most likely suck” seems to be the pessimistic view a few of you prefer.

Since we’re not giving anyone the benefit of the doubt here: Telling someone to keep the same braking zone “but just be lighter on the brakes” is also a huge generalization, and could lead to understeering their way right off track.

I’m not saying less brake isn’t an effective approach, but it’s not the only approach.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Theory...one thing working against newer drivers is a current 200 treadwear tire outperforms most r-comps from 10 years ago. To the contrary, it makes drivers slower.

Observation...When I started, local track, MSR Houston - 2008-ish most intermediate drivers were around 1:50-1:52, I was running 1:47s in advanced and was in the upper 3rd. Fast forward to today same DE org, I can't find an advanced DE driver that is running below 1:50.

Maybe I am getting old but the better the tires, nannies and overall car gets, the slower the driver seems to be.

I think you’re right. The carve or setting the edge is lost in lieu of point and shoot.

Good visual for those that ski or watch ski racers. It’s a carve (albeit with tricky weight placement) but it’s not a hockey stop to rotate and repoint the fall line. It’s the same concept in the car.

Someone already mentioned, find a safe corner and instead of going faster and deeper, come in slower but brake less. And see if you can carry more min speed. See if you can carve the car. Find its edge, then you can add speed with a dash of trailing off later and see if you can add more edge by shifting weight.

Again each corner is different, but the goal is go through the corner as fast as possible in as short a distance as possible. Not simply, trail brake…

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by DRLane

You can brake earlier, just brake less.

i started doing this into turn 1 at BW and ive shaved a full second LOL

[Bartledoo]

I’m with Ximian on how to teach a *novice student braking and entry technique when they are previously overslowing and getting back to throttle on corner entry. Telling them to brake later is generally not productive with a novice/intermediate. This just makes the braking and entry phase even more frantic for them, when they are already pretty overloaded as is. Having them use the original brake initiation point but with less pressure is much more effective in leaving them with the bandwidth to feel the nuances of weight transfer while releasing the brake and turning in, and getting them to learn how to settle the car into a turn smoothly with higher speed.

And as others have already said, brake timing, pressure, and release vary based on corner characteristics…I’ve always wondered why most people at the track generally talk about “rotation” but don’t understand the when and why.

[gmx]

And as expected, we went off into a range of theories.

From reading his description, he trails despite how good/honed the technique is. But overslows then leads into throttle correction which as I said, kills the rotation. Throttle corrects and likely sits in maintenance throttle period going nowhere. Car should be decelerating or accelerating, way better rephrasing of "you should be on throttle/brake at any one time" myth. Maintenance throttle is definitely bad, load transfer is messed up and the car isn't effectively going anyhere. Forget about your min speed, you've lost tenths already by the next corner.

Min speed, and just about all the above is really flaff. The best advice is thinking traction circle. Do any coaches truly sit down and teach how to read and interpret data when cars fitted with aim/motec loggers? As I indicated, I'm increasingly of the opinion that a good coach is also a better psychologist.

Edit: someone mentioned colin braun. So I went and dug this up to have a listen on 2x:

Within the last damn minute the host is talking about getting to WOT faster rather than getting on the throttle faster. Bam, simply communicated now go execute. Another reason you will see that a substantially faster driver usually has a lower throttle % for a given lap.

[bleedat]

Has anyone gotten their stock M3 steering wheel modified to be thinner? Seeing if there are alternatives to KMP since I still go through yearly state inspections.

[Gossypiboma]

Originally Posted by bleedat

Has anyone gotten their stock M3 steering wheel modified to be thinner? Seeing if there are alternatives to KMP since I still go through yearly state inspections.

Never heard of doing that, but I'm curious as to why you want a thinner wheel?

[derbo]

Originally Posted by bleedat

Has anyone gotten their stock M3 steering wheel modified to be thinner? Seeing if there are alternatives to KMP since I still go through yearly state inspections.

The non-M sport wheels are thinner in diameter. The center controls are interchangeable. The unfortunate part is this only works for 6MT since DCT paddles are different than the auto paddles.


For example the BMW Performance yellow striped wheel.
32-30-2-157-307

Originally Posted by Gossypiboma

Never heard of doing that, but I'm curious as to why you want a thinner wheel?

I think its overly thick too tbh. The E46 one was great.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by gmx

And as expected, we went off into a range of theories.

From reading his description, he trails despite how good/honed the technique is. But overslows then leads into throttle correction which as I said, kills the rotation. Throttle corrects and likely sits in maintenance throttle period going nowhere. Car should be decelerating or accelerating, way better rephrasing of "you should be on throttle/brake at any one time" myth. Maintenance throttle is definitely bad, load transfer is messed up and the car isn't effectively going anyhere. Forget about your min speed, you've lost tenths already by the next corner.

Min speed, and just about all the above is really flaff. The best advice is thinking traction circle. Do any coaches truly sit down and teach how to read and interpret data when cars fitted with aim/motec loggers? As I indicated, I'm increasingly of the opinion that a good coach is also a better psychologist.

Edit: someone mentioned colin braun. So I went and dug this up to have a listen on 2x:

Within the last damn minute the host is talking about getting to WOT faster rather than getting on the throttle faster. Bam, simply communicated now go execute. Another reason you will see that a substantially faster driver usually has a lower throttle % for a given lap.

100% agree with you, but are we talking about coaching novices or more advanced drivers? There are levels to coaching for different levels of student. Honestly, there are many supposed “advanced” drivers which do not understand and/or are not ready for advanced technique, which to me says they are not advanced. That is hpde “advanced”, though, in a lot of cases lol

[Tommysalami]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

100% agree with you, but are we talking about coaching novices or more advanced drivers? There are levels to coaching for different levels of student. Honestly, there are many supposed “advanced” drivers which do not understand and/or are not ready for advanced technique, which to me says they are not advanced. That is hpde “advanced”, though, in a lot of cases lol

What do you consider "advanced" technique? The concept of advanced driving technique was always weird to me since even the pros are just doing the same basic fundamentals, just better than us.

[okusa]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

100% agree with you, but are we talking about coaching novices or more advanced drivers? There are levels to coaching for different levels of student. Honestly, there are many supposed “advanced” drivers which do not understand and/or are not ready for advanced technique, which to me says they are not advanced. That is hpde “advanced”, though, in a lot of cases lol

Also in agreement and also feel like some responses have conveniently changed the facts to justify the desired response. The fact of the matter is the discussion is about going faster through a turn. Thus, it makes no difference whether novice or pro. Anyone interested in going faster should be learning the proper technique as early on in their tracking journey as possible because bad habits are hard to break.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by okusa

Also in agreement and also feel like some responses have conveniently changed the facts to justify the desired response. The fact of the matter is the discussion is about going faster through a turn. Thus, it makes no difference whether novice or pro. Anyone interested in going faster should be learning the proper technique as early on in their tracking journey as possible because bad habits are hard to break.

But if you can’t feel what the car is doing or grip available, learning a technique for the sake of being advanced isn’t going to pay any dividends other than saying “I do blank”.

Taking things simply can offer a focus on feel which will guarantee speed later. And not just in your car, on those tires, at that track, with x conditions, etc.