DCT Leak Recurring Problem?

[buddalun]

I am quoting a post from slonik that discusses all the details of the Slon-Workshop DCT pan and the design philosophy:

Original post & thread: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=72

Originally Posted by slonik

and some updates! our own design dct oil pan

you can think, "why we can't just go and buy one of the dct pans, which already sells enough on market?". i'll return to this question after typing some info .


first time we thought about custom pan in summer, when swapped dct on our e82, but those time we had no time for this.
anyway, after some dct usage on track we have a lot of experience with it and we saw some weak spots.

one of the main problems on track - oil starvation. it happens when you have high G on lateral acceleration and after hard braking. dct trying to get right oil pressure, to make some of the operations, like working with clutch or gear shifting, and it can't build enough pressure, cause oil goes away from suction pipe. in that moment you can get some short delay, or, if you'll continue to push acceleration pedal - fault code on dash and transmission warning light.
easiest solution - raise oil level. this way chose bmw on their track oriented M3 GTS- it has additional liter in transmission.

this solution helps a lot, but not totally - on stock oil level we can get some transmission warnings every track session and after raising the level like on gts, only 1-2 times per day (about 8-10 sessions). thanks to huge grip of 275 square setup hankook semi slick .

so we decided to close this issue totally with changing stock dct pan. in our own design pan we added some huge partitions all over bottom surface. another way - lowering bottom of the pan. but it wouldn't have any real effect, if suction pipe will stay on same height as stock. so, we also make some spacer, to lower suction pipe to the lowest point of our new pan.

another weak spot - dct overheating. in some cases we had up to 185c degrees in some points of the transmission (oil ramp over forks and hubs).
main solution (and most effective) - uprated oil cooler. we also use it, but if we making custom piece of aluminum, we can make anything we want . so we must to use all possibilities - and we add some real cooling fins all over bottom surface.

another additional function of new pan - add some stiffness to transmission case. oem dct pan made from plastic, which also bends on high temperatures - to compensate this, bmw (or getrag) use thick rubber seal.
in our case we don't need to compensate bended flange surface of the pan (cause it has excellent smooth surface), and if we will continue to use rubber, we can't get hard connection between oil pan and main case. so, designing oil pan flange without rubber seal, to fit it with sealing compound.

and another one condition - oem dct oil pan has a little slope from the front to the end. this was made to compensate transmission angle, when it installed on the car. this slope on the pan gives horizontal position for the bottom of the pan. we had repeated same slope on our pan.

also, we have some limits in the height - most of the track oriented cars has low ride height and smallest ground clearance, so we can't add height a lot.
so we have tried to make max height, which will not make our pan - lowest point (around transmission location).

so, why just don't go and buy?

because i've spent a lot of time, looking through the internet, and i saw most of them and... i don't like any of them .
all of them has some real minuses. a lot of them were made with huge savings in manufacturing - small cooling fins, which i don't understand how to call "cooling fins" (real fins takes a lot of cnc time). bottom without any slope - huge cnc time economy (if you work on 3-axles machine).
most of the pans has simplest design inside, without any partitions. best i saw - some small partitions on the bottom, which doesn't make any real difference.

and a lot of deep pans - one deeper than another but no one of them thought about suction pipe height.

and another "why?" because we can


ps this one was made for our M3F80. second copy, for our e82, will be done after new year vacations.
i'll post some pics, fitted on the car later.

[GORDON.M3]

Originally Posted by kabeero

Gintani makes a nice DCT pan as well for $850
http://gintani.com/product/gintani-d...anced-oil-pan/

(pictures)
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...5&postcount=91


I think if the temperature issues of the DCT are resolved, the Viton gasket is unnecessary.


My understanding is the OEM aluminum bolts are one-time use due to their stretching. The screws are listed as 14x M6x24 for the DCT pan and 12x M6x14 for the mechatronics housing.

Although a little shorter, I think these SS screws should work for the DCT pan:
https://www.mcmaster.com/#92095a488/=1b6ccvs (M6x22, 18-8 SS)
https://www.mcmaster.com/#94500a238/=1b6cfio (M6x20, 316 SS, more corrosive resistant)

And for the mechatronics:
https://www.mcmaster.com/#94500A315 (M6x14, 316 SS)

If anyone has the Viton kit on hand, what screw length did they use for the SS DCT pan?

If you ever get those bolts and try them out let me know. I would like to order a set of my own bolts also.

Anyone with the SSP kit take 1 of the bolts and measure for us?! thanks!

[KawBoy]

Originally Posted by kabeero

SSP kit:
"We have also replaced the factory aluminum stretch bolts with hardened stainless bolts which can be reused."

That's weird. I have a set (#28107842386) and I can tell you they are not aluminum. ISTA doesn't mention replacing them btw. I also have a set of the mechatronics screws (#28107842829) which is pretty much the same screw, but 10mm shorter. ISTA calls for screw replacement on mechatronics.

I am doing my transmission this weekend, so I will know better, but something somewhere is not right with Al screws. As a side note, my car is 03/2012.

[Patrón]

Originally Posted by KawBoy

That's weird. I have a set (#28107842386) and I can tell you they are not aluminum. ISTA doesn't mention replacing them btw. I also have a set of the mechatronics screws (#28107842829) which is pretty much the same screw, but 10mm shorter. ISTA calls for screw replacement on mechatronics.

I am doing my transmission this weekend, so I will know better, but something somewhere is not right with Al screws. As a side note, my car is 03/2012.

what software tool are you using to complete your filling and adaptation process? good luck.

[KawBoy]

Originally Posted by Patrón

what software tool are you using to complete your filling and adaptation process? good luck.

ISTA. But adaptation process is not necessary when changing tranny fluid.
Thanks.

[kabeero]

Originally Posted by buddalun

I'm not a fan of the Gintani in that you cannot use the OEM DCT under tray/cover. I believe the SSP unit has the same issue.

If that under tray is just for debris protection, I'd rather not have it to promote more airflow against the heatsink design.

Originally Posted by buddalun

Finally, since the Gintani is deeper, do they provide a spacer for the DCT oil pickup like the Slon unit? I believe not.

I also wondered that, maybe Slon will sell the spacer separately. Gintani doesn't mention a need for the spacer, so maybe if you have enough DCT fluid at high acceleration the interior baffles prevent the fluid from displacing enough to cause the pump to lose suction.

Originally Posted by KawBoy

ISTA. But adaptation process is not necessary when changing tranny fluid.
Thanks.

I read if you want to 100% drain all the fluid it is needed

what mileage do you suggest performing tranny service (fluids + filters)? EDIT: I've been reading ~75k, but Blackstone samples from 110k were reported fine

[///Mobbin]

I found some interesting information in this thread about having the DCT re-learn valve pressures, apparently only needed if certain DCT components are replaced though, LINK.

There is also an "oil adjustment" function in this software though it's unclear what that is for based on the information presented in the thread. Maybe kenwelch can enlighten us.

[buddalun]

Originally Posted by kabeero

If that under tray is just for debris protection, I'd rather not have it to promote more airflow against the heatsink design.



Gintani doesn't mention a need for the spacer, so maybe if you have enough DCT fluid at high acceleration the interior baffles prevent the fluid from displacing enough to cause the pump to lose suction.

The DCT cover may also aid in airflow and aerodynamics under the car. I'm not certain, but for a car that sees street time (like mine) I'll stick with the cover, even if it only aids in mitigating damage from debris.

Your point about the Gintani DCT fluid level/baffle design is entirely speculation, and likely not the case. Do you know what the interior of the Gintani pan looks like? Any pics?

Maybe you should buy the Gintani, be the guinea pig, and give us some real data. It's cheap, right??!!

[GORDON.M3]

I wouldn't buy anything from Gintani tbh...

[slonik]

buddalun
thanks for quoting my post.

sorry me, sometimes i'm forget, that not all people works with the cars, parts etc, so can't see some technical features of the parts, all differences, which are usually hide in a small details and give completely different overall result.

so, i'll try to explain some other features of our pan, which make it different from others.

another feature of our pan, which i see can be really important - oil leak problem solved. aluminum pan doesn't have bending effect under high temperatures like oem plastic pan.
also, we purposely gone away from oem rubber seal. oem plastic pan can't work without it - it's need for compensating thermal expansion of plastic, bending etc, to save it from quick leaking (but you saw result on your cars already).

aluminum pan has same thermal expansion as overall gearbox case, and even more - if we mount aluminum pan without thick rubber seal, assembly works as a solid part, pan starts to work as strengthening, and adds a lot rigirity to the gearbox case.
may be on m3 e9x NA engine this is not such important feature, but on cars with a huge torque, this is more than relevant (it's hard to imagine, but under high loads even aluminum case can bends, that negatively affects on the overall gearbox resource.

beauty in details - we made small groove on the side surface of our pan, for easier and better sealant applying.

another simple detail - we are save oem magnet ring (mounting place on the pan). without it gearbox resource will fall dramatically (it catches any wear particles in oil, and extends gearbox life).
you can think, that it's too easy, but some of aftermarket pans missed that important thing, and have no magnet at all.

kabeero

I also wondered that, maybe Slon will sell the spacer separately.

i don't know gintani pan height like all other dimensions to make correct spacer.

[kabeero]

Originally Posted by buddalun

Your point about the Gintani DCT fluid level/baffle design is entirely speculation, and likely not the case. Do you know what the interior of the Gintani pan looks like? Any pics?

Maybe you should buy the Gintani, be the guinea pig, and give us some real data. It's cheap, right??!!

Originally Posted by gordon@

I wouldn't buy anything from Gintani tbh...

oh wow... the inside is completely flat... yeah not a fan.

[rantarM3]

Originally Posted by slonik

another simple detail - we are save oem magnet ring (mounting place on the pan). without it gearbox resource will fall dramatically (it catches any wear particles in oil, and extends gearbox life).
you can think, that it's too easy, but some of aftermarket pans missed that important thing, and have no magnet at all

I will be installing my pan as soon as I get my lift early this spring and was wondering about the magnet. Do I just unbolt it from my old pan and bolt it right into my Slon Workshop pan where you installed the washer?

[slonik]

Originally Posted by rantarM3

I will be installing my pan as soon as I get my lift early this spring and was wondering about the magnet. Do I just unbolt it from my old pan and bolt it right into my Slon Workshop pan where you installed the washer?

yep, you need to take magnet from oem plastic pan and mount it to our pan.

[KawBoy]

Originally Posted by kabeero

I read if you want to 100% drain all the fluid it is needed

what mileage do you suggest performing tranny service (fluids + filters)? EDIT: I've been reading ~75k, but Blackstone samples from 110k were reported fine

I don't think you would be able to drain 100% of the fluid unless you somehow empty the cooler. Even so, you would still have some fluid left in the pump and other components inside. You can always manage to push in fresh fluid throughout the system, achieving the same results. Still, no adaptation/learning process is needed. However, if you replace some internal components (ie. pump, mechatronics, clutch) you do have to run adaptation.

[KawBoy]

Did the DCT service yesterday, replacing oil pan, suction filter, high pressure filter and mechatronics gasket and cover. Tranny was left in place, no unbolting/lowering was necessary.
6 liters of fluid out, 6 back in. Thought about getting all of the fluid out, but I only had 6 liters with me.
Tranny is running perfectly fine.

[M43S7RO]

I'm at 50k miles and replaced the suction filter this morn. Not a bad DIY, just messy. I got 5 liters out, fluid appeared fresh & nothing on the magnet at the bottom of the pan. 5 liters of Motul DCTF went back in. I'm hoping to get a higher capacity pan within the next 25k miles and will change out the pressure filter then.

No perceptable performance difference after changing fluid. I did save a sample to send to Blackstone. I will update here with results.

Thanks to those who have contributed tips and experiences as they were very useful!

[rantarM3]

Originally Posted by KawBoy

Did the DCT service yesterday, replacing oil pan, suction filter, high pressure filter and mechatronics gasket and cover. Tranny was left in place, no unbolting/lowering was necessary.
6 liters of fluid out, 6 back in. Thought about getting all of the fluid out, but I only had 6 liters with me.
Tranny is running perfectly fine.

Would you mind shaing some insight as to how you did the mechatronics gasket without lowering the transmission? Any tips/tricks you suggest?

Also, did you actually replace the mechatronics cover? If so, how come?

Thanks!

[KawBoy]

Originally Posted by rantarM3

Would you mind shaing some insight as to how you did the mechatronics gasket without lowering the transmission? Any tips/tricks you suggest?

Also, did you actually replace the mechatronics cover? If so, how come?

Thanks!

Yes, I did replace the cover. Although expensive for a cover, I decided to minimize the chances of having a leak again, for I wasn't sure the leak was gasket, cover or gasket/cover related.

You either have to have small hands or have a friend with small hands. And patience. I have a friend who is a mechanic and has all the necessary attributes. The trick is to bend down the heat shield where the cover thing is screwed into. I don't remember the name of that thing, but here you have an idea. Let me know if I can be of assistance.

[buddalun]

I received the DCT Pan from Slon-Workshop.

This piece of hardware is gorgeous.

[///Mobbin]

^Brilliant piece!

[M43S7RO]

Looking forward to a review!

I received the DCT Pan from Slon-Workshop.

This piece of hardware is gorgeous.

[atopa2002]

https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1425010

Lets gets this Group Buy started