Track forum general chit chat.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by spxxx

Good info, I'm a weirdo and run Raybestos and they're pretty amazing compared to the Hawks I've run. Right in between the price of Carbos & Hawks.

i'm going to ask if the bottom layer that secures the material to the backing plate is a different compound. it definitely felt different through the pedal. but- i'm not sure if it was because the pads didn't have any heat capacity (like zero capacity) or if it was a different material. either way, i like how they communicated that they were spent before i was grinding backing plates.

Originally Posted by inTgr8r

lol...down to the bone

how many sessions did you get out of them... seems like you just put them on. ??

about 12 sessions i would say. one day at sonoma, one day at laguna, and 1/2 day at willow springs. however, laguna seems to be like a double day on braking components.

Originally Posted by okusa

That's crazy. I assume you are running DSC? Otherwise, they should last a lot longer.

yes, i run the mdm. its cheap insurance. these J-hook disks also contribute to increased wear, but the trade off is more pad bite. yost and i had a conversation about this today.
i know mdm contributes a lot of wear.

[ayao]

Originally Posted by spxxx

Good info, I'm a weirdo and run Raybestos and they're pretty amazing compared to the Hawks I've run. Right in between the price of Carbos & Hawks.

What compounds front/rear? I've been eyeing their pads for a while but haven't quite figured out which compound would suit my needs the best.

[inTgr8r]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

.....
yes, i run the mdm. its cheap insurance. these J-hook disks also contribute to increased wear, but the trade off is more pad bite. yost and i had a conversation about this today.
i know mdm contributes a lot of wear.

I understood that yaw control intervention predominantly increased wear on the rear pads.
How did your fronts compare to the rears?

Also, from the color change on the rotor hats, am I correct in assuming that you don't run any cooling ducts???

If wear is mainly front pads, I would consider excessive heat as a possible reason for eating pads so quickly.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by inTgr8r

I understood that yaw control intervention predominantly increased wear on the rear pads.
How did your fronts compare to the rears?

Also, from the color change on the rotor hats, am I correct in assuming that you don't run any cooling ducts???

If wear is mainly front pads, I would consider excessive heat as a possible reason for eating pads so quickly.

MDM uses front brakes 99+% of the time.

I've done a full write up on this topic (using AIM Solo DL data) demonstrating that MDM primarily uses the front brakes to prevent the rear of the car from stepping out. The AIM tracks your brake pedal presses, along with the caliper activations of each caliper. So, if you're not pressing the brake pedal, but a certain caliper is activating, you know that MDM is stepping in and activation that caliper. It's very clear in the AIM data. And the AIM data shows the fronts activating virtually all the time.

You can read it here: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...7&postcount=27

For sure, MDM is causing roastbeef's front pads to wear prematurely. I guess any track that's driven in a way that's outside of MDM's comfort zone can lead to lots of MDM braking activity, but Willow Springs and Sonoma, for sure, can lead to lots of MDM braking activity. And Laguna Seca can also be tough.

I am surprised that his pads went that quickly though. I have been running Cobalt Friction pads (XR2@front/XR3@rear) for years and, with MDM on, I would get 9-11 days from a front set. Now that I run with DSC off all the time, my front pads last a very long time. I probably get 50% more wear out of my front pads with DSC off---maybe 15-17 days. (I've never run a set of XR1's so I don't know how long they would last me.) I wonder if a high torque pad is more susceptible to quicker wear. My front rotors are wearing WAAAAAAY more slowly with DSC off now. I used to get about 20-25 days from front AP 368mm rotors. I believe I'm past day 36 on these rotors and they're still going fine. And the heat cracking on them is far less than in the past. And it's worth mentioning that I've been running the fastest lap times I've ever run more recently so I haven't been babying them.

Anyway, in roastbeef's specific case, I would LOVE to see AIM data on how MDM is acting. If it's stepping in a ton, I would say to roastbeef that he may want to revisit his driving style because something in his driving habits is forcing MDM to step in. In my MDM write up, I showed pictures of laps with fairly quick lap times and MDM on. The MDM activity wasn't really that bad. Big Willow is BY FAR the worst with Turns 2 and 8. Anyway, all I'm saying is that just because MDM is on doesn't mean it has to activate constantly, even on a fairly quick lap.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by inTgr8r

I understood that yaw control intervention predominantly increased wear on the rear pads.
How did your fronts compare to the rears?

Also, from the color change on the rotor hats, am I correct in assuming that you don't run any cooling ducts???

If wear is mainly front pads, I would consider excessive heat as a possible reason for eating pads so quickly.

as dogbone proved, MDM primarily uses the front brakes. my rear brakes have always been pretty low wear.
correct, no cooling ducts on my car. keep in mind, i'm only running a front kit, and my car is still pretty heavy. i'm also running nt01 tires.
once i decided to swap pads yesterday, i took a gratuitous cool down lap and let the car sit for about 15 minutes, and i still burned my thumb (hence the reason why i'm holding the pad with pliers in the pic).

i'm looking for a gt4 lip, but the right deal hasn't come up yet. i may also do a naca duct in the bottom of my existing apr splitter, but i'll have to evaluate that idea when it is off the car and i can see how much room i have.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by dogbone

Anyway, in roastbeef's specific case, I would LOVE to see AIM data on how MDM is acting. If it's stepping in a ton, I would say to roastbeef that he may want to revisit his driving style because something in his driving habits is forcing MDM to step in. In my MDM write up, I showed pictures of laps with fairly quick lap times and MDM on. The MDM activity wasn't really that bad. Big Willow is BY FAR the worst with Turns 2 and 8. Anyway, all I'm saying is that just because MDM is on doesn't mean it has to activate constantly, even on a fairly quick lap.

there are a couple things going on in my case. i had a long conversation with jordan yost about brakes yesterday.... these J-hook rotors i'm running are fantastic and offer great bite, but the edges of the hooks and the amount of them providing that sharp leading edge really wears down pads.

MDM absolutely contributes to my increased wear. and like you mentioned, i just ran three tracks that mdm hates. i absolutely agree that i may have some habits that need to be improved across the board.
i didn't beat my personal best, but once i switched back to my ds2500 hybrid pads i got a bit more confidence back and was managing 1:35 laps at big willow and a high 1:34. not earth shattering, but also not the slow guy. the car is heavy and has trouble in some weight transfers, but part of that is my technique. i'm still wrestling the oem suspension as well...

[inTgr8r]

Thanks guys!! , ....still lots to learn for me on this platform.

Also curious if you're running mdm euro?

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by inTgr8r

Thanks guys!! , ....still lots to learn for me on this platform.

Also curious if you're running mdm euro?

Nope.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by inTgr8r

Thanks guys!! , ....still lots to learn for me on this platform.

Also curious if you're running mdm euro?

In my case, MDM was in Euro mode. I also went one step further to make MDM less intrusive. There's one more pair of settings that can be changed. This thread talks about it:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=956396

On the parameters listed below, mine were changed to "wert_02":

M3_UEBERSTEUERN_MUE_0
wert_02
M3_UEBERSTEUERN_MUE_1_2
wert_02

Switching to Euro MDM and changing M3_UEBERSTEUERN_MUE_0 & M3_UEBERSTEUERN_MUE_1_2 to "wert_02" seems to be the least intrusive you can make MDM.

I ran with MDM with these changes for several years and it was fine. As I continued to push the limits of the car even further with gutting, cage, aero, stickier tires, OS Giken diff, etc....then DSC just didn't know what to do with such extreme mods. And how can you blame it? It just wasn't made to deal with that. I turned DSC off 100% of the time in late 2015 and continued to work on my driving style/skills. But I like to tell people, I didn't just turn it off one day; I had spent more than a year gradually driving with it off (and hitting skid pads) until it was turned off all the time (except for Big Willow, where I took my time building up confidence there. And now it's off there too)

But don't take my comments as any kind of pressure to turn it off. Nothing of the sort. I ran MDM for 4 years, and I don't regret it. I learned at my own pace with relative peace of mind.

[roastbeef]

this is me being 100% honest- i'm scared to turn off mdm. it will take a ton of discipline to switch it off and build up that skill gradually. here is the kicker, i maybe do about 5 track days a year and i'm not sure if that is often enough to build on a sensitive skill like car control at 130mph.
i'm sure i have developed some bad habits tracking and using mdm.

eventually, i will turn it off. however, this will be after some serious safety equipment additions. i'm just not prepared to do it now. and although i buy track insurance, i like the additional insurance of mdm. i still don't want to ball up my car.

i'm usually not the slowest guy out there though.

[admranger]

Since we break things doing track work, screw and bolt extractors are a must in the tool box (at home at the very least).

This just popped up on Amazon: Irwin screw/bolt extractor

Not sure of the quality of Irwin tools, but the price is pretty good. The left hand drill bits are the key in my opinion.

Your bolt extraction may vary. No affiliation other than a user of bolt extractors over the years.

[Richbot]

Still possible to crash one of these with everything engaged, see e.g....well you know the website. IMO most of the "track" mode brake based vectoring/yaw control systems don't really "Teach" bad or good habits, they just don't teach you anything, and make performance driving videogamish because there is an algorithm deciding whether and when and how much to apply brakes to keep the car pointed where it is aimed...this is basically active steering assist on GT, heh, it gives you an exaggerated sense of speed scrubbing from turning the wheel relatively little, all while masking any slide you might have otherwise induced (a little fear helps your brain and muscles to sync up aka the "light bulb" moment) you never get to talk directly to the tires with these systems on, though a near two-ton sled with leather, heated seats and a big trunk is probably not the best place to learn that skill, lol

The biggest problem I've seen a couple people get themselves into after "learning to drive" with something like early versions of Chevy's PTM or this system is just cranking on the wheel doesn't cause brake application or any torque reduction which means you have to use your feet or go sailing off into the weeds if you were really pushing the car hard up to its limits before

You have the advantage over many trackday national championship hopefuls of being on the OEM suspension which gives you TONS of time to correct errors, it's not snappy and it's not going to kill you if you crash a curb with the car a little slideways

It's not like you ahve to turn it off and never go back or you get your card pulled either, turn it off in a sequence of corners you're comfortable with then turn it back on again, go "back to school" and put it in 4th and leave it, etc. And then once you know you can do it, go back if it still makes you uncomfortable because there's no reason to listen to haters like me on the internet if you want to track the way you want to track and if you ever buy something new with systems like active torque vectoring diffs, the car will probably be faster with the system in "track" mode anyway

[inTgr8r]

^ I was at that point with my track prep'd Z4MC where the nannies were just to intrusive & the only way to continue improving was to go full off.

With switching to the M3, I plan to use mdm in its least intrusive setting (ala Dogbone's settings)
& Spend some time on the skid pad, then go full off once I have a good feel for the car.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

this is me being 100% honest- i'm scared to turn off mdm. it will take a ton of discipline to switch it off and build up that skill gradually. here is the kicker, i maybe do about 5 track days a year and i'm not sure if that is often enough to build on a sensitive skill like car control at 130mph.
i'm sure i have developed some bad habits tracking and using mdm.

eventually, i will turn it off. however, this will be after some serious safety equipment additions. i'm just not prepared to do it now. and although i buy track insurance, i like the additional insurance of mdm. i still don't want to ball up my car.

i'm usually not the slowest guy out there though.

There's endless peer pressure when it comes to this topic. I've talked about this before. Over 4 years, I heard all the bullshit. People would lecture me on how traction control is slow. But then my times were faster than theirs. Oh, then the tune changes---well then traction control is cheating......uh.....wait a minute... Is it cheating or is it slow? You can't have both! My favorite comment that I heard many times: "You're not really driving the car. You're just doing some steering....." But, it always nagged them that I was faster than them and winning Time Attacks.....hehe....it REALLY bothered some people.

After I stopped using traction control, my times did improve a couple seconds, but the car was also in a different place by then with being lighter and running grippier tires, aero, etc. And I continued growing as a driver. People who know my history have come up and asked if traction control is on or off with these more recent lap times. When I say it's off, I swear to God, you can see the relief on their faces......I am NOT kidding about that. Apparently, their egos are dependent on the state of my traction control......

The biggest thing I had to learn when traction control was turned off was gas pedal modulation. The DSC system is very sneaky and smooth about holding power back when you get on the gas. It can be VERY subtle. With DSC on, if you press the gas early and fairly hard on exit, the power comes on real smooth as you go around the corner. You don't realize that DSC is largely ignoring your pedal input, and it's bringing the power back as it sees fit. hehe One of the most naked examples of this is the Bus Stop corner at Buttonwillow. I was very familiar with Buttonwillow with DSC-on, and so with DSC-off, I went confidently around Bus Stop, got on the gas like normal and HOLY SHIT did that supercharged power come on INSTANTLY! Way more suddenly than anything I had ever experienced before. The tail came out and I had to deal with it the best I could. DSC had been quietly modulating the power delivery and delaying the onset of the power even though I had always pressed the gas pretty assertively there. It didn't take long to sort out the pedal feel there. But it was one of the best examples of how my gas pedal behavior needed to be modified.

For QUITE awhile, I would only drive DSC_off when no one was around me. As soon as I got into traffic, I turned it back on.

Anyway, the bottom line with all of this is: Don't let peer pressure and ego rule your motorsport habits. Learn skills at whatever pace feels good to you. Don't just do something cold-turkey out of ego. Motorsport does not reward that behavior. No one else is making your car payments for you, so no one else's opinion matters.

For anyone that wants to learn with DSC off, I have always recommend skid pads as a good starting point. And autocross is a great way to learn in a slower setting. If you royally screw something up in an Autocross, all you do is plow a few cones.......who cares. Richbot's suggestions are very good too.

And I think I have dispelled the myth that MDM is slow. My MDM-on times: Buttonwillow 1:51, Big Willow 1:27, Laguna Seca 1:39, Chuckwalla 1:55. I think most people would agree, those are decent times regardless of DSC settings.

PS. Writing this post has reminded me of an experience I had a Laguna Seca several years ago. There was a Ford GT ahead of me on the front straight. I crested the hill and the Ford GT is in the braking zone for the Turn 2 hairpin and his car goes into a smoky back and forth spin. He ended up rolling backwards off the track. I have video of it: (Go to 1:45)

Anyway, after the session, there was a driver's download meeting, and I mentioned that a Ford GT spun going into Turn 2. The guy (a dude nearing 70 years old) raised his hand. "Yeah, sorry that was me." I went up to him after the driver meeting and asked him what had happened. He said, "First, let me tell you a joke......What does every redneck say just before he dies? Watch THIS!!!!.........That's what I did. I had someone in the GT with me and I was trying to show off how powerful the brakes were and I literally said 'watch this' and stomped on the brakes like an idiot and you saw the result."

All this to say, the dumbest things happen in motorsport when ego and bravado run the show.

[Richbot]

you can usually count on one hand the number of people within a second of their car's potential in a given session, there are plenty of slow people whose opinions come out fast, that's for sure

[evilspiritM3]

Looking to pick up an AIM SOLO DL this cyber monday.

Pretty sure that I want the CAN set up vs. the OBD II. thoughts? pro/cons of each?

Thanks for the help.

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by evilspiritM3

Looking to pick up an AIM SOLO DL this cyber monday.

Pretty sure that I want the CAN set up vs. the OBD II. thoughts? pro/cons of each?

Thanks for the help.

you want CAN - it has more channels

[reborn]

Originally Posted by evilspiritM3

Looking to pick up an AIM SOLO DL this cyber monday.

Pretty sure that I want the CAN set up vs. the OBD II. thoughts? pro/cons of each?

Thanks for the help.

While we are on the subject. I was actually looking for a Smartycam HD. Does anyone know what the difference between having only the SCHD connected to the ECU straight or having it connected through the SOLO DL?

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by evilspiritM3

Looking to pick up an AIM SOLO DL this cyber monday.

Pretty sure that I want the CAN set up vs. the OBD II. thoughts? pro/cons of each?

Thanks for the help.

CAN!

Pros: It gets more channels. Cons: The install takes a bit more than just plugging into an OBD port. (I had a shop do it, so I can't give any tips on install.)

[evilspiritM3]

dogbone & ThunderMoose

Thanks!

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by reborn

While we are on the subject. I was actually looking for a Smartycam HD. Does anyone know what the difference between having only the SCHD connected to the ECU straight or having it connected through the SOLO DL?

I am not sure you can hook up SC to ECU. I believe you need the DL to log channels.

SmartyCam with SOLO DL is the best set up there is in my opinion. Super easy to set up and get automatic video with data overlay that you look at between sessions.

[inTgr8r]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

I am not sure you can hook up SC to ECU. I believe you need the DL to log channels.

SmartyCam with SOLO DL is the best set up there is in my opinion. Super easy to set up and get automatic video with data overlay that you look at between sessions.

The SC is very nice & would love to have one, but I just cant justify the cost.