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| 06-18-2010, 09:37 AM | #45 |
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Actually I find the 4l V-8 in the M3 to be similar in characteristics to 13b rotary. The V-8 has a lot more power and torque but the power builds smoothly and almost effortlessly until redline just like a 13b. It’s a much better engine than a rotary but the driving characteristics are similar.
I find the VTEC is more like a turbo car where it feels sluggish until the boost hits. |
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| 06-18-2010, 02:04 PM | #46 | |
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| 06-18-2010, 04:56 PM | #47 | |
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 If you got a ZHP in 03, then you got a sedan. What color? Imola red? I got one of the first coupe ZHPs in May 04. I really liked the sedans after I got my coupe. I hated how all sedans then came with orange turn signals, which was an easy mod just get oem euro signals. I didnt want to mod at all, so I got the coupe. It is a well documented issue with ZHPs. It was at 4k rpm not 5k rpm as I mentioned before, but like I said it was a while ago. You could have been one of the lucky ones if you did not feel a power loss at 4k rpm under full acceleration. Did you have the stalling out issue at low speeds/stopping? It was another ZHP thing. Reminded me of the stalling issue someone else is having here with M-DCT. Both issues that I had, the dealer had to send my DME to BMWNA. When I went to the 2 day M school last year, one of the instructors DD was a titanium silver sedan ZHP. It looked stock, but another instructor told me it had mods, and not to try him because he saw I had a ZHP. While up there, I ran into another titanium silver coupe ZHP at a supermarket parking lot. I dont see to many ZHPs around me. Back to your regular scheduled thread. |
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| 06-19-2010, 07:31 PM | #48 |
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Coming from an old Honda aficionado, this engine is similar in that it needs to be rev'd to get power from it. With respect to the VTEC crossover point, I felt it more from the B18C (Type R engine) than I did from the K series that was in my 04 Si (what a let down that engine was), either way a S/C'd 4 banger has nothing on this V8. You won't miss it AT ALL!
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| 06-19-2010, 09:10 PM | #49 | |
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Drives: E92M3-E46M3-E46Wagon-E89Z4-E36
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Location: Greater St Louis Metro area
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A few folks have actually weighed their E92M3 cars and most are below 3600, especially with a no fuel weight.
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Invest Wisely...The best mod for your money?? BMWCCA high performance driver's school. The mod that lasts a lifetime and improves the performance of any car you drive[/LEFT]
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| 06-22-2010, 06:38 PM | #54 |
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Hi guys, 1st post so don't bite my head off but I just wanted to weigh in on this subject since engine tech is something dear to my heart!
Sorry for the essay-like post but it's not a simple subject!! Just to clear up what each of the engine technologies that BMW and Honda have produced actually do...: VTEC: uses 2 sets of cam lobes (actually 3 profiles but that's another story!) This allows the system to use two different stages of VALVE LIFT and VALVE DURATION. If you increase VALVE LIFT then generally more air/fuel will enter the cylinder increasing torque and producing more power. When engines are turning slowly they like a SHORTER duration to produce low end torque and when they are spinning faster they want a HIGHER duration to produce high end torque. It's actually a bit of a myth that VTEC as a system produces low torque...it's actually a torquer optimiser allowing the engine to produce the most torque it can across the entire rev range. VTEC engines generally produce much flatter torque curves than many more modern engines and excellent torque PER LITRE figures. The perception of low torque is from people expecting too much from sub 2 litre engines!! There is no phasing ability of the camshafts and since it's a 2 stage on/off system if the cam lobes on the HIGH LIFT and LONG DURATION cam are significantly more aggressive than the LOW LIFT and SHORT DURATION cam lobes then there's generally a big on/off effect (Integra Type R and S2000 especially - if anyone's driven a GSR Integra they'll know the VTEC is far more gentle in crossover!) The reason they don't also tune the "off VTEC" lobes as aggressively (to reduce VTEC kick effect) in those cars is primarily that it would kill the fuel economy - although there are also limits to how far you can push valve lift and achieve smoother idle/low rpm performance! i-VTEC There's actually 2 versions of this that someone pointed out previously, both featuring the above features of "normal" VTEC but also CAM PHASING. Most only feature this on the INTAKE cam however the more performance oriented engines also feature this on the EXHAUST cam. CAM PHASING alters the overall timing of the cam so as to ADVANCE or RETARD timing overall. This can be used to cause more or less CAM OVERLAP, more helping produce high rpm torque and less producing more low rpm torque. Cam phasing on i-VTEC can vary the intake/exhaust cams by about 25 degs. Most engines that alter cam phasing can alter by a similar amount more or less. Overall i-VTEC means an even smoother torque curve than a VTEC system and much less of the 2 stage effect due to the variable cam phasing. Right enough Honda... VANOS Interestingly this is also a fixed 2 stage system like VTEC however it only varies CAM PHASING and only on the INTAKE cam. There is only one cam profile so VALVE LIFT or DURATION cannot be altered. This restricts how the torque bandwidth meaning it is not very useful for high rpm engines (unless you're prepared to sacrifice low end torque). It alters between 6 degrees of ADVANCED to 6 degrees of RETARDED timing. DOUBLE VANOS DOUBLE VANOS adds control of the EXHAUST CAM timing as well as INTAKE. It also adds continuously variable CAM PHASING through a range of 40degs intake and 25 exhaust. Basically DOUBLE VANOS is the "i" in performance i-VTEC without the valve lift/duration control. VALVETRONIC Valvetronic is possibly the most interesting BMW valve technology in that it alters VALVE LIFT but unlike both VTEC and i-VTEC it does this continuously and can alter all the way down to almost completely closed. This eliminates the need for a separate throttle body and improves engine response time and economy. BMW doesn't use this on M-series vehicles, instead using Individual Throttle Bodies (ITB's). These also allow improved engine response over a single throttle body. So to round up the comparison, i-VTEC is very similar to DOUBLE VANOS in valve timing tech but i-VTEC also features 2 stage CAM LIFT. VALVETRONIC offers much smoother VALVE LIFT control than VTEC due to being continuously variable. But the downside is they haven't been able to implement this on the high performance engines... YET! There are a lot of other valve technologies out there but I think Honda and BMW are both still world leaders in their respective classes when it comes to actual (and reliable!) valve control technologies. VTEC was well ahead of it's time and although some systems now have more control over CAM PHASING and certainly VALVE LIFT, the majority cannot control overall DURATION - which is why there aren't suddenly a boat load of high revving new engines out there! A-VTEC (Advanced VTEC) which should have arrived 5 years ago was to implement continuously variable VALVE LIFT which would have brought the Honda system well up to date. But it never appeared. And then they scrapped plans for RWD and V8 motors. Basically BMW have been doing everything Honda should have done over the last 10 years. The Efficient Dynamics program keeping performance as a focus while also improving economy is a huge success story. Honda on the other hand haven't even implemented direct injection technology successfully yet, and with the whole range gaining weight they've left their cars underpowered and inefficient. Even the most fanboy of Honda fanboys who grew up with Civics and Integras and started earning a little money must have jumped ship by now. And I'd lay money that most of them grew up and turned to BMW for their performance kicks. It's just the next logical step... |
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| 06-22-2010, 11:01 PM | #56 | |
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Friend of mine used to have ITR and with the cold air intake mod the sound was pretty awesome as well. Good times 
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| 06-23-2010, 08:29 AM | #58 | |
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What I will add is this: BMW does not make any engines today that still use the old "single VANOS" system. All BMW engines, at least gasonline engines (don't know about the diesels) use double VANOS at least, and many use Valvetronic. As for naturally aspirated engines, I think only the M engines haven't moved to Valvetronic at this point (mainly because it is not designed for high RPM). Though I am not sure if they are still using the N43 4 cyl(double VANOS) or if all 4 cyl are N45 now (Valvetronic). Turbo engines still use double VANOS for the most part, except the new N55 I6 which does feature Valvetronic. And I expect the upcoming new turbo 4 will employ Valvetronic as well, and eventually the turbo V8 and V12 also, and future M turbo-charged engines too. In other words, BMW makes a steady progression with their technology, and propigates it through the engine range. Does Honda still uses traditional VTEC in some cases? |
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| 06-23-2010, 11:07 AM | #59 | |
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And forget about modern valve lift, or even cam phasing. At least give people a modern V6 with DOHC heads and cam chains, rather than stupid belts and SOHC. They have A LOT of catching up to do not only with their engines, but everybody else is using 6-speed manual and auto trannies across the board. |
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| 06-23-2010, 12:40 PM | #60 | |
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I don't want to get into an argument about valve technologies with just my 2nd post but I have a couple of things I had to add! Firstly I wouldn't exactly say Honda is deceiving with the use of VTEC as it is simply an umbrella term for the technology. Using the tech to keep 2 valves closed, or in more high performance engines open valves further. The implementation of VTEC-"E" for economy is the same as performance VTEC just using a different camshaft design. Honda have been using 6 speed manual trannies for ...10 years?  (13 years in NSX)Secondly you mentioned a "more aggressive profile", the J series use 3 stages as far as I'm aware. None are as aggressive as say the cams off the NSX engine (C30A/C32B), but then they were designed with economy in mind not outright power. It's not a VTEC-yo! engine in the purest sense! Either way it can't be that outdated...it's been on Wards 10 best engines list 5 times in the last 10 years (including 2008 and 2009) - not bad for an engine in production for 14 yrs+. I'm not sure what you meant by "modern valve lift"...maybe continuously variable valve lift? Honda still uses a 2 or 3 stage system you are correct. However most manufacturers have no lift control whatsoever - only BMW, Toyota and now Fiat (with multiair) have fully controllable valve lift. I wouldn't say Honda have a LOT of catching up to do engine wise, more the considerable advantage or potential advantage they had with the technologies they developed for VTEC and then i-VTEC has slipped away. If Honda were to finally bring Advanced VTEC to market and (more importantly IMO) direct injection along with it - not only would this bring them bang up to date but only Fiats Multiair would have arguably a more flexible system. And we still have to see how that fairs in terms of reliability - it isn't a simple solution! Anyway, you are right that Honda are lagging in several areas. I don't agree with the new direction they're heading - they'll probably never make a true performance car again which is sad. I'm all for economy and efficiency, just not at the expense of performance, which is why I'm liking the way BMW are rolling right now. I can't wait to see the new M5. I know many people aren't happy it'll be turbo'd but I think all the efficiency technologies being implemented are going to pave the way for the future of performance road cars.  |
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| 06-23-2010, 07:52 PM | #62 | |
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 . Seeing you're a Honda owner, I'm signing off. I happen to own BOTH ('08 Accord 6MT with VTEC and '08 M3) now, and have owned many other Hondas and Acuras before. You just read what you wanted. I referred to 6MT and 6AT on their ENTIRE line, not only mine and Si (NSX was sold as an Acura, and it's discontinued  ). And most cars have one form of variable valve timing, and Honda still uses the 2-stage as it's primary one, which is antiquated, whether you like it or not. They started using cam phasing only recently and in some models, where most other manufacturers already use it, at least on the intake. And as I said, their main shortcoming is their 'ancient' SOHC design and belt-driven cams on the V6. Don't want to turn this into a forum war so I'm signing off. Hope you go back to your Honda boards now  . Good day. |
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| 06-25-2010, 05:13 AM | #63 |
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having owned a civic type R JDM before, I can tell u that it is one helluva engine. It feels indestructable & the vtec rev is addictive. Very raw & is best felt on the track. The LSD & balance of the car makes it handle v nicely on tight corners.
The M3 is a big beast but handles like a small car. It picks up speed seriously fast & is hard to compare a 2l & 4l |
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