E92 vs. E46 on track with equal power?

[d k]

Hi

Just curious if anyone has tracked both and what the opinions are?

Obviously the V8 has a bunch more power, thats why I asked the question with equal power...

Also, whats a good gutted race weight of the E92?

Thank you

[_X]

Both full weight manual examples with rear sections. The E46 M3 then got SuperSprint Full Race Exhaust (headers back, no cats), AFe intake and scoops, and TTFS Dyno Tune. After the dyne tune the car made 313 horsepower to the wheels and 256lbs-ft of torque at the wheels.

The e92 still beats the e46, but only by about a fender or so now. The margin seems to depend on the speed the roll begins at. Higher the speed the greater the margin of victory for the e92.

I haven’t tracked an e46, but have driven a couple rather spiritedly and they really are great cars. I prefer the steering feel of the e92, as well as the power delivery. That said, the e46 is seemingly more agile.

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by d k

Hi

Just curious if anyone has tracked both and what the opinions are?

Obviously the V8 has a bunch more power, thats why I asked the question with equal power...

Also, whats a good gutted race weight of the E92?

Thank you

It'd be tough for an E46 to match power of an E92. Jens Polte (jakob66) and I compete in NASA Mid Atlantic. He has an E92 and I have an E46. He usually beats me but our cars have similar acceleration and top speeds though my car is nearly 600 pounds lighter.

I think either car can be made to be competitive. Word on this forum is that E92 is better.

[d k]

Thank you.

Im looking for an all out time attack build and I will be swapping engines and drivetrains completely.
So I am comparing lighter weight E46 vs. a more modern (?) chassis...

I might also skip the M variant completely and start with a base E46 chassis.


Thanks for the input!

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

It'd be tough for an E46 to match power of an E92. Jens Polte (jakob66) and I compete in NASA Mid Atlantic. He has an E92 and I have an E46. He usually beats me but our cars have similar acceleration and top speeds though my car is nearly 600 pounds lighter.

I think either car can be made to be competitive. Word on this forum is that E92 is better.

[_X]

Originally Posted by d k

Thank you.

Im looking for an all out time attack build and I will be swapping engines and drivetrains completely.
So I am comparing lighter weight E46 vs. a more modern (?) chassis...

I might also skip the M variant completely and start with a base E46 chassis.


Thanks for the input!

Manual or paddle? If so I think many would recommend the e92 for lack of issues with the SMG in addition to the faster shift times.

Not sure how crazy you want to go with your build but starting with an M is likely the better route. Aside from the motor, you have to think about the suspension, such as control arms etc., and differentials. If you are going to touch every part of the car before you track it then it makes sense, but if you plan to incrementally build your car, I believe the M is the way to go.

[d k]

No, I would ditch the entire BMW drivetrain altogether.

Its either gonna be a 4cyl turbo or an LS/LT variant and most likely a T56 mag, or a nascar style 4speed dogbox

Im just trying to research the actual chassis dynamics between the 2 generations..

Im not sure what a gutted 92 weighs, but the 46 can get down to 2300ish which would be very fast with 600-700 hp.

Originally Posted by _X

Manual or paddle? If so I think many would recommend the e92 for lack of issues with the SMG in addition to the faster shift times.

Not sure how crazy you want to go with your build but starting with an M is likely the better route. Aside from the motor, you have to think about the suspension, such as control arms etc., and differentials. If you are going to touch every part of the car before you track it then it makes sense, but if you plan to incrementally build your car, I believe the M is the way to go.

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by d k

No, I would ditch the entire BMW drivetrain altogether.

Its either gonna be a 4cyl turbo or an LS/LT variant and most likely a T56 mag, or a nascar style 4speed dogbox

Im just trying to research the actual chassis dynamics between the 2 generations..

Im not sure what a gutted 92 weighs, but the 46 can get down to 2300ish which would be very fast with 600-700 hp.

Why not E36 like these guys

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by d k

No, I would ditch the entire BMW drivetrain altogether.

Its either gonna be a 4cyl turbo or an LS/LT variant and most likely a T56 mag, or a nascar style 4speed dogbox

Im just trying to research the actual chassis dynamics between the 2 generations..

Im not sure what a gutted 92 weighs, but the 46 can get down to 2300ish which would be very fast with 600-700 hp.

You'll be able to get an E46 chassis much lighter then an E92. I'd vote getting a non-M E46 for your goals. You'll be able to get it lighter much easier, you can find a cheap but good condition non-M E46 for cheap and you won't feel bad if you need to hack up the car to make your swap fit well.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

Why not E36 like these guys

It's harder to find a good E36 then an E46 nowadays, and the E36's are actually more expensive now as it's getting more and more difficult to find an E36 in good shape (for a project like this, no rust no rotted subframe/shock towers etc). Starting with an already track prepped E36 might be a good idea, just swap in the drivetrain you want and away you go.

Also the E36's in race trim, fully stripped, aren't really any lighter then an E46.

[OG Shark]

If power is equal then the E9x is going to have to make up a lot of ground on the E46's potential to be considerably lighter. Both platforms have a lot of potential - but how light you can get an E46 can give them a big advantage from the start. We are a bit over 3k w/o driver with my E92. Think we can get sub 3k but probably not by much.

In a balanced class I believe the E9x has the potential to be faster but as always its going to come down to the build and the driver.

If you are going for a full on all out build the lower weight of the E46 could be very appealing. Curious though how much power that the chassis can take though before tearing itself apart being tracked hard. Might be something to look into.

[roastbeef]

redpriest

[d k]

Yes, I thought of that too. My uncle has a company that makes carbon parts forthe E36 also.
I actually started re looking at the BMWs after I saw a video of a guy driving a 36 to 7:17 at the ring on a stock engine.

But also, like has been mentioned in this thread, Im not sure there would be any advantage starting with the 36?
Its not much lighter and the 46 seems to be better in just about every way.

The class rules are a 295 tire, som Im trying to find the lightest weight, best geometry chassis to start with.

There are not too many options out there believe it or not, besides the go to C5/6, Camaro or Mustang that everybody seems to resort to.

Its really important to me to get the weight into the lower 2000’s

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

Why not E36 like these guys

[d k]

That was myinitial thinking!

I am actually trying to figure out what the differences are in the chassis?

Obviously the rear diff and maybe the whole rear subframe is different. Maybe it is retro fittable?
Fenders and quarters are wider on the M (obviously), I also wonder if that would be an easy or worthwhile retrofit?

Originally Posted by tsk94

You'll be able to get an E46 chassis much lighter then an E92. I'd vote getting a non-M E46 for your goals. You'll be able to get it lighter much easier, you can find a cheap but good condition non-M E46 for cheap and you won't feel bad if you need to hack up the car to make your swap fit well.

[m3heaven]

Sounds like you're starting a multi-year project lol

Good luck!

[d k]

Im definitely trying to avoid that!

Originally Posted by m3heaven

Sounds like you're starting a multi-year project lol

Good luck!

[dogbone]

hmmm where to start......

-What time attack series are you looking at? With an organizer like Global Time Attack, they have removed the drivetrain class separations. So, FWD, RWD and AWD all compete against each other. In my opinion, this gives the AWD cars the advantage given equal money spent on the three drivetrains. So, if you're looking to be competitive, the easiest way to be competitive is to start with AWD.

-E92 simply cannot be as light as E46 or E36. E92 can't easily go below 2800 lbs without getting super crazy. E46 can be sub-2600 lbs with a full gutting and carbon parts. E36 can be around 2400 lbs with full gutting and carbon parts. Weight is very very very very very very important.

-In general, BMWs aren't really the ideal TT platform. I do TT with my E90 because it's the car I had. But it's at a huge disadvantage compared to many other cars out there. It's tall, big, heavy, RWD. If you are starting from scratch, and going to go big power, you should really consider a body that is low slung and can get light. Corvettes can do very well. And I know it's not sexy, but a Miata with crazy development can be fast as hell. Of course, Subarus are putting insane times down. I won't talk about Nissan GTRs because they start really expensive. All these other things I've mentioned can be gotten pretty cheap now.

Anyway, given the question you started by asking, I don't believe you're wedded to a BMW. And if you're going to pour a ton of resources into a car that is specifically built for TT, why not start with a platform that will give you the best chance?

btw, the lightest E46 I have seen in person was built by Trinity Autosport. It weighed 2550. That thing was super stripped and had a basic cage in it. You mentioned an E46 at 2300 lbs. That would be quite a feat.

[d k]

All good points.

Im fully aware of the importance of weight....

When I was researching the lightest chassis available, the only ones that could be sub 2000 were the Elise, Miata, and MR Spyder. None of these cars can fit a 295 tire, and to do a non ‘marque’ swap would put it in Limited anyway...

The other thing is looking at lap times in general, it becomes evident that some cars respond to hp increases very well, and some dont.

When I raced the S2000 all those years ago, we won a lot of races with very little power.
When I raced the FRS, it had 2x the power, it was barely any faster and still ‘needed more’.

So, Im looking at a bunch of possible options for a build in the street class and shooting for something like a 2:20 COTA and 1:30 Laguna.

I have tracked a few E46’s and have an idea of what they feel like, but never tracked a 92.

The other thing is the non M 46 chassis are so cheap now!

Originally Posted by dogbone

hmmm where to start......

-What time attack series are you looking at? With an organizer like Global Time Attack, they have removed the drivetrain class separations. So, FWD, RWD and AWD all compete against each other. In my opinion, this gives the AWD cars the advantage given equal money spent on the three drivetrains. So, if you're looking to be competitive, the easiest way to be competitive is to start with AWD.

-E92 simply cannot be as light as E46 or E36. E92 can't easily go below 2800 lbs without getting super crazy. E46 can be sub-2600 lbs with a full gutting and carbon parts. E36 can be around 2400 lbs with full gutting and carbon parts. Weight is very very very very very very important.

-In general, BMWs aren't really the ideal TT platform. I do TT with my E90 because it's the car I had. But it's at a huge disadvantage compared to many other cars out there. It's tall, big, heavy, RWD. If you are starting from scratch, and going to go big power, you should really consider a body that is low slung and can get light. Corvettes can do very well. And I know it's not sexy, but a Miata with crazy development can be fast as hell. Of course, Subarus are putting insane times down. I won't talk about Nissan GTRs because they start really expensive. All these other things I've mentioned can be gotten pretty cheap now.

Anyway, given the question you started by asking, I don't believe you're wedded to a BMW. And if you're going to pour a ton of resources into a car that is specifically built for TT, why not start with a platform that will give you the best chance?

btw, the lightest E46 I have seen in person was built by Trinity Autosport. It weighed 2550. That thing was super stripped and had a basic cage in it. You mentioned an E46 at 2300 lbs. That would be quite a feat.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by d k

All good points.

Im fully aware of the importance of weight....

When I was researching the lightest chassis available, the only ones that could be sub 2000 were the Elise, Miata, and MR Spyder. None of these cars can fit a 295 tire, and to do a non ‘marque’ swap would put it in Limited anyway...

The other thing is looking at lap times in general, it becomes evident that some cars respond to hp increases very well, and some dont.

When I raced the S2000 all those years ago, we won a lot of races with very little power.
When I raced the FRS, it had 2x the power, it was barely any faster and still ‘needed more’.

So, Im looking at a bunch of possible options for a build in the street class and shooting for something like a 2:20 COTA and 1:30 Laguna.

I have tracked a few E46’s and have an idea of what they feel like, but never tracked a 92.

The other thing is the non M 46 chassis are so cheap now!

Yup forgot to mention S2000. They can be quite fast without ruining your financial future.

Here’s what it boils down to for me: if you say you’re going to replace the engine and the drivetrain, and of course the suspension would be replaced, then you’re not really driving a specific platform anymore. So you’re shopping for a shell. I would recommend that the shell be low slung and have a documented history for being able to be light without having to spend insane $$$$$. Then you consider the availability of performance parts for that shell. The less custom fabrication you have to do, the faster this build process goes and the less hassles you have.

For a comparison metric——my car is 3100lbs, 550whp, on hard Yoko slicks at COTA. Did 2:20. You take a 2300 lbs car with 600-700 whp on A052, it has to be faster than my car.

Sounds like an interesting ground-up project. Have fun!

PS. Honestly, if someone was doing a ground-up project, I’d love to see a Subaru build with some monster LS engine. The head gasket issue in the Subaru engines is so crippling. But damn those cars are fast once they’re setup.

PS2. One other note: There is something to be said for a reliable build. You go to these time attacks and there are some cars that have a crew of 7 guys running around them and they barely get a single lap in if at all. And then you have my humble car—-a lonely guy sitting in his lonely trailer. Quite often, the most often asked question I get isn’t about the car setup. It is, “Are you here doing this by yourself???” However, I will admit, trying to do COTA SuperLap Battle would have been a big mistake. Titan 7 provided some much needed support. And OG Shark’s tech (who was there spectating) jumped in when stuff started breaking. Next time at COTA, I’ll plan on having a tech there all weekend.

[d k]

Originally Posted by dogbone

Yup forgot to mention S2000. They can be quite fast without ruining your financial future.

Yeah, I raced the S2K when they first came out. I got it's maiden win both in SCCA and NASA.
was a great car. With 270hp, I qualified 3rd behind 2 GT1 cars, ahead of all the rest of the GT1, GT2, GT3 and all of the IT cars. I think there was 35 cars or so in total.
Most of the big cars passed me right after the start, but it shows how good the chassis is.
I have no idea what would be needed to be competitive in time attack though. It would need huge power and insane aero.

It is still an option though...


Going aaaallllllll the way on the other end of the scale, I was reading up on the MR Spyder which starts off at 2100lbs!
But nobody has made them real fast though. So, something tells me that the chassis isn't all that good..

Originally Posted by dogbone

So you’re shopping for a shell. I would recommend that the shell be low slung and have a documented history for being able to be light without having to spend insane $$$$$.

Yes.

Originally Posted by dogbone

For a comparison metric——my car is 3100lbs, 550whp, on hard Yoko slicks at COTA. Did 2:20. You take a 2300 lbs car with 600-700 whp on A052, it has to be faster than my car.

AAAAHHHH! YES!
We could have a conversation about this topic alone for a very long time!

There is a 3rd gen Miata (NC) 2300lbs with 650hp that did a 2:16 on slicks!
Now, you put that car on A052s and he is gonna be 2:19 at best!

What does that tell us?

It shows how some cars make use of power better than others and this is the goddamn rabbit hole that I am in.

Originally Posted by dogbone

PS. Honestly, if someone was doing a ground-up project, I’d love to see a Subaru build with some monster LS engine. The head gasket issue in the Subaru engines is so crippling. But damn those cars are fast once they’re setup.

This is one that I'm gonna have to disagree on...

Subarus are pieces of shit.
If I was God, I would literally make all Subarus illegal and I would throw a meteor at their factory. I can't even say the word out loud.

They fail at the very basic level of engineering.
The placement of the engine in front of the front drive axle is like putting boobs on a girls back.

I time attacked and FRS for a while. This is a rwd car. It started off as 56/44 weight distribution, meanwhile Subaru and Toyota were touting this a real drivers car! WTF??? Who is the driver?
I was able to get some decent power out of the car (550hp) and it was even reliable, but the horrible implementation of wannabe chassis dynamics made the car very inefficient and not very reactive to power.
Every 100hp it was .1 sec faster lol.

Originally Posted by dogbone

PS2. One other note: There is something to be said for a reliable build.

I don't even consider a non reliable build a build.
If it's not reliable, stay home.

My S2000 had a race history of 31 races. I won 27 of them.



It will be interesting where this goes...

[sbo76]

I run an E46 with weight reduction, mid level suspension and 275 square setup. I am an intermediate level driver (i hit the track 10-12x per year). I consistently run faster times than the e90 on most tracks. It comes down to weight and balance for me. A friend of mine has a 2400 lb E36 with 20K invested in his suspension and huge brakes that beats me every time. Weight and braking matters as much as power. For me it comes down to the reliability of the e46 platform along with the cost. I am not going to be sponsored anytime soon so i am happy to go out and be competitive with cars that cost 3-4x as much. Happy to answer any specific questions you may have.

[d k]

I distinctly remember a stock E46M with gutted interior, jrzs and slicks and I was in the low 20s at Willow and it felt like I didnt even try hard.

Ever since then I have always thought that one day I will buy one.
Never did, but I have a feeling E46 is one of those chassis that punches above its weight, as they say.


Which tracks do you go to?

Originally Posted by sbo76

I run an E46 with weight reduction, mid level suspension and 275 square setup. I am an intermediate level driver (i hit the track 10-12x per year). I consistently run faster times than the e90 on most tracks. It comes down to weight and balance for me. A friend of mine has a 2400 lb E36 with 20K invested in his suspension and huge brakes that beats me every time. Weight and braking matters as much as power. For me it comes down to the reliability of the e46 platform along with the cost. I am not going to be sponsored anytime soon so i am happy to go out and be competitive with cars that cost 3-4x as much. Happy to answer any specific questions you may have.

[okusa]

I assume you are referring to Streets and not Big Willow.