E9x M3 vs. E46 M3 Driving Experience (2021 Edition)

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Obioban

If you’re going to pick jump points on M3s, I’d say they’re e46 and f80. E46 M3 has a bunch of stiffening over the non M:
E36 m3: 10,500 nm/deg
E46 m3: 18,500 nm/deg
E90: 22,500 nm/deg
F80: 40,000 nm/deg

E39 was ahead of its time.
E39: 24,000 nm/deg

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

AFAIK E92 M3 has 33,000Nm/deg of torsional rigidity.

I was going to say just that, the E9X was 33k, not 22.5k

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I was going to say just that, the E9X was 33k, not 22.5k

That quote shown wasn't for an E90 M3, so it's misleading.

[Obioban]

The list didn’t have the e90 m3 listed:
http://youwheel.com/home/2016/06/20/...ehensive-list/

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Obioban

The list didn’t have the e90 m3 listed:
http://youwheel.com/home/2016/06/20/...ehensive-list/

The E9X M3 is 33k. If you've been under both cars, the jump from the paper mache E46 to the E9X generation is very clear

[neilum]

This guy makes a crazy dumb statement then wonders why people are calling him out, then says we’re biased because it’s an e90 m forum. I love the internet.


I do wonder why have an e90 if he clearly has some illogical built-in bias against it.

[tsk94]

I've street and track driven both stock and track ready E46 M3's and E92 M3's. Stock vs. stock the E92 is a clear step up from the E46 in almost every regard, both on the street and on the track. A 'lightweight' spec E92 (no iDrive/Nav, coupe, carbon roof, 6 speed) is only ~100lbs heavier than a typical E46. On the street the E92 is more comfortable, more refined, a nicer place to be in, all while having more performance than the E46. On track, again the E92 is a step up from the E46 when comparing both as stock cars. The E92 has a better front end (turn in is more precise and less understeer), more stable, better brakes and more forgiving at the limit (likely due to the longer wheel base). The E92 is also a much more rigid chassis and you can certainly feel it on track.

Track prepped E46 vs E92 the differences become much smaller. The E46 has the advantage of being quite a bit lighter, but power to weight of the two cars is actually very similar. E46 is smaller and more nimble while the E92 is more stable and forgiving. Similarly prepped E46 vs. E92 feel quite similar on track overall and the difference is much less noticeable compared to the cars as they are stock and on the road. Both have advantages and disadvantages for a track car, but performance wise they are extremely similar in a track-car prepped form.

[Auston Martin]

This video tells you all you need to know on which one is better. They literally get emotional on how good the e92 feels.

[///M3Fresh]

I believe most everyone has a different definition of what 'feels' better. The way that I look at both cars is they are great and special in their own way.

I've 6 years of E46M ownership, mostly Street with some track and 10 years of E9xM with similar style of driving. The E46M to me, has a nostalgia that simply can't be materialized on paper but adds to the 'feel' and overall a positive for the driving experience. Simply put, every time I see a clean E46M on the road it breaks my neck! And that adds to the overall experience.

Does the E9XM do this for me? Yes, but not nearly as much. (comparing stock vs stock, mod vs mod). Having had both cars and knowing what I know now, things like where E46M prices have been, the issues they have, the exhaust note or lack thereof (to my ears) vs E9XM pricing, S65 sounds, and overall problem free when compared to the E46, the E9X is way more appealing to me. On top of the already mentioned points about the E9XM car being a better car in the standard metric aspects. The E92M just pulls ahead in my eyes in the overall driving experience.

[Kingjames31]

I currently have both e46 and the e92. Both are great cars. The e46 definitely feels more nimble and raw to me although others have challenged this. It feels like a different car. E92 feels more compliant until you really push the car. Exhaust is amazing with a few mods. E46 just looks amazing. Both have pros in cons. Both have flaws. Neither is particularly fast.

To me they are both everyday cars that are not considered special as a whole although I’m sure special to some individually for a variety of reasons (no disrespect) especially on this forum.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by Kingjames31

Neither is particularly fast.

Stock E46 traps 107mph in the 1/4 and a stock E92 traps 114mph (C&D test data). When you're as old as I am, there was about 20 years time when one could never, ever imagine having cars that fast (or even a car as fast as the higher performing muscle cars of late 60s to 1970). If a car can run mid-12s and trap 114mph, thinking of that as not particularly fast is all a matter of perspective, but I sure do appreciate that performance every time I drive the M3 and always will.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Stock E46 traps 107mph in the 1/4 and a stock E92 traps 114mph (C&D test data). When you're as old as I am, there was about 20 years time when one could never, ever imagine having cars that fast (or even a car as fast as the higher performing muscle cars of late 60s to 1970). If a car can run mid-12s and trap 114mph, thinking of that as not particularly fast is all a matter of perspective, but I sure do appreciate that performance every time I drive the M3 and always will.

Meanwhile the base new Tesla Model S now does 0-60 in 2.9 and the mid range model S does it in 1.9 (with a quarter mile in the 8s).

I think we've reached the inflection point where more speed is actually making cars less fun to drive. Compared to the above, which will become the norm, both the e46 and e9X are slow... and better off for it.

e46 M3 (numbers from Car and Driver long term test of a 6mt car):
0-60: 4.5
Quarter mile: 13.1 @107

e92 M3 (numbers from Car and Driver long term test of a DCT car):
0-60: 4.3
Quarter mile: 12.7 @113

Model S Plaid (Car and Driver):
0-60: 1.9
Quarter mile: "less than 9 seconds"

edit: went with a 6mt e46 and DCT e9X because that was the fastest version of each car.

[kyrix1st]

Maybe it is a bit off topic, but I prefer driving E92 to the 17' F82 ZCP stock to stock.

F82 has better power and chassis rigidity, but I feel the damping and turn-in response of E92 are quite good compared to F82. F82 feels stiff to a certain point but rolls pretty hard once you go over the limit (this was in sport plus EDC) and turn-in response isn't as nice as I thought it would be. It is arguably more direct for F82 due to stiffer springs but E92 seems to have a naturally better turn-in response. Throttle steer though is much easier with F82 for obvious reasons.

To each his own, but I think it is a testament to how great the E92 was built. I compare its driving dynamics with every car out there when I am making a purchase, and it is also a benchmark test vehicle for Japanese high performance vehicles; ask me how I know.

[Serious]

After owning way too many M cars I've always felt e46M needed a bunch of mods to make it feel up to date and fix some of the deficiencies whereas the e92M kinda feels right straight out of the box.

The f80 and g80 are when I feel BMW went a step too far to extract laptimes they actually need the suspension softened off to match the compliance & composure on the road the e92 has.

[dongerkim]

Since there are no right or wrong answers, i'll try to chime in.

Currently owner of an e46m3 and have also owned two f80's. Hopefully taking delivery of my first e92 this week but have had some seat time with them so somewhat familiar. My experience is both street and quite a bit of track driving so here are just my OPINIONS. Also just from a manual transmission standpoint

e46m3

pros~
-best looking M car. This is the car that got me into cars… so purely personal
-interior isn't so dated for such an old car (assuming the car isn't equipped with nav)
-feels lighter than it is
-held its value extremely well
-very tamed and predictable at its limits
-pretty easy to work on (even the subframe job wasn't as bad as i thought)
-steering feels great (not sure why so many people disagree)
-held its value very well

cons~
-brakes are made of butter
-i still hate the seating position + headrest position
-raspy exhaust
-gearbox feels notchy, even after a shifter rebuild + ZHP shift knob (im sure there are solutions to this but im more just kinda a OEM+ guy)
-terrible cooling system on hot track days

e92m3 (i've never owned one… yet)

pros~
-V8, best sounding M car next to e60m5
-feels lighter than it is
-apparently fairly reliable
-steering feel is great
-cf roofs are common whereas slicktop e46 are rare

cons~
-interior looks quite dated even for it's time
-brakes still feel like butter
-shifter still feels notchy (okok i have owned an s2000 before…)
-not the best looking M car

f80

Pro~
-great interior and tech (huge step up from e9x, where as e46 and e9x felt too similar
-very fast
-brakes are great
-cooling system is great. can do lap after lap on the nürburgring and never once saw get too hot even on a hot day
-held its value VERY well for a new car
-gearbox feels better than the last two
-so much front end grip
-very good feeling suspension
-the torque… my first turbo car coming from only N/A

Cons~
-holy shit the seating position is terrible. feels like i'm in an SUV
-steering feels terrible. The car was difficult to drive in a setting that wasn't comfort. especially to drift lol
-felt heavier than it is (this one is strange because the f80 is quite light for how big it is)
-the f80 fart sound, alright it was improved in the zcp models later. it actually sounded cool inside the car but outside the car it does sound kinda soso
-it's a very big car



each M3 has its own strong suit and I am happy to say I am excited to finally get into my first V8. I guess after all these years I've always wanted a nice sounding car coming from only i4/i6 cars. I do sortve regret not getting a DCT car at any point since i've always really enjoyed it when i do get the opportunity. I guess i was just a little nervous that i would eventually not like it/was a bit too conscious of the resale value

[Richbot]

I think the F80 rides great...with the 18's on it. You just can't put heavy dubs with rubber bands on anything and expect it to ride great. Most other manufacturers have all gone to a 27 or 28" tall or taller tire to match their dubs or dubs+1/2 to get some sidewall back. The pursuit of lower and lower profile tires for their own sake has been hella dumb.

It's too bad they didn't evolve the 4.0 more, but, oh well. Each M3 is different and that's why BMW M cars are so cool - each one has had a very unique character all its own. This evolutionary approach that started with the F10 and F80 and has now gone into G80/F90 is sorta...sad...yet I'm sure the cars are getting better even though they're also getting bigger and faster just like every single generation of 911 and Vette before. The unique character generation to generation is what made the M3 stand out vs. the vette and 911 and others. It was always the same end goal, but never the same ingredients, except arguably the transition from E36 to E46 was more evolution than revolution outside the US, but here we finally got that S54. 2.3->3.0->3.2->4.0->3.0TT->3.0TT->3.0TT hybrid?->???

[Richbot]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I think we've reached the inflection point where more speed is actually making cars less fun to drive. Compared to the above, which will become the norm, both the e46 and e9X are slow... and better off for it.

preach brother

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by dongerkim

e46m3
...
cons~
...
-terrible cooling system on hot track days

Something is wrong with your cooling system (or it's not stock-- most of the aftermarket "upgraded" cooling system parts perform worse than stock).

I've done track events in the mid 100°s without issue, while running the AC.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by Richbot

preach brother

I thought the same thing, but then I drove a GT2RS on track the other day and was like hrmmmm

[414bhp]

Everyone has an opinion, including me!

A friend and I took a rented E46 SMG and my E90 DCT on some of Malibu's finest roads several years ago. The E46 was the more rewarding canyon car of the two because it was more communicative and its power peaked lower in the rev range. Curiously, the E90 M3 seemed to me to least interesting in the canyons and best in the city or at the track. In the city, the E90 could really calm down and coddle. On the track, the S65 engine does its best work and the E90 chassis comes alive and communicates.

I wrote a blog piece on the two cars here.

In my eyes, the E46 is the quintessential M3. The E90, on the other hand, shines because it has the best M3 engine.

[Redd]

I'm curious if anyone has compared the E9xM chassis with solid subframe bushes vs F8x chassis. Cos as we all know, the E9x rear subframe is mounted on 4 blocks of Jell-O.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by Redd

I'm curious if anyone has compared the E9xM chassis with solid subframe bushes vs F8x chassis. Cos as we all know, the E9x rear subframe is mounted on 4 blocks of Jell-O.

I’ve tracked my car with solid sfb and lots of other mods, and also an M3 CS…the CS sucked haha! My car is setup nicely though. I also thought the base M2 was garbage, and the engine sucked. E46 M3 was terrible stock as well…

To be fair, the stock E9X M3 could be worse on track than all of those. I wouldn’t know.

[qusainshirazi]

Having driven both, E46 M3 comp and owning a 09’ M3, they’re a whole different feel and ballgame. I like the raw driving experience of the E46, but like the V8 noises and feel of that S65 in the E92. E46 is plenty of power to play around with, E9X can feel a bit slow for what it looks like imo