E9x M3 vs. E46 M3 Driving Experience (2021 Edition)

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by PYE46M3

The only way to bring the E46/E9x crowd together is by inviting the F80 M3 folks into this thread so they can tell us how much better their torque monster digital cars are compared to outdated E chassis analog M3s.

F8X shouldn’t be considered an M3. As far as I’m concerned, e9X was the last M3.

[PYE46M3]

Originally Posted by Obioban

F8X shouldn’t be considered an M3. As far as I’m concerned, e9X was the last M3.

Ok we have fuel for the fire. F80 folks will bring a lighter.

[DRLane]

But if the goal is a formidable track car, then undoubtably the f8x is the winner. Can’t compete with the readily available power.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by DRLane

But if the goal is a formidable track car, then undoubtably the f8x is the winner. Can’t compete with the readily available power.

That implies faster makes a better track car.

Tracking isn't racing, so I'm not sure what having a faster car buy you-- worse crashes? More expensive tires/brakes? For the purpose of tracking, getting faster within whatever can you're driving seems like a far more relevant indicator of improvement.

... and if you are racing, cars are classed-- so faster doesn't really buy you anything there, either.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by Obioban

That implies faster makes a better track car.

Tracking isn't racing, so I'm not sure what having a faster car buy you— worse crashes? More expensive tires/brakes? For the purpose of tracking, getting faster within whatever can you're driving seems like a far more relevant indicator of improvement.

... and if you are racing, cars are classed— so faster doesn't really buy you anything there, either.

True - Thinking time attack.

And yes, power isn’t everything but it’s more fun and always alluring. Otherwise y’all would be in Miata’s and not an e46.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by DRLane

True - Thinking time attack.

And yes, power isn’t everything but it’s more fun and always alluring. Otherwise y’all would be in Miata’s and not an e46.

If I was short enough to close the roof, I'd have a miata.

Time Attack is classed-- no F8Xs going up against e46s.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by Obioban

If I was short enough to close the roof, I'd have a miata.

Time Attack is classed— no F8Xs going up against e46s.

“If I was…” don’t count. You can do that into perpetuity. Youve got the beloved e46 so it’s clear that your argument of solely weight and consumables is a bit of hyperbole.

Come on, I said in the post above building a formidable track car. Not a boring stock M anything.

Lots of e46 built cars going against the same e9x and f8x in higher classes.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by DRLane

“If I was…” don’t count. You can do that into perpetuity. Youve got the beloved e46 so it’s clear that your argument of solely weight and consumables is a bit of hyperbole.

Come on, I said in the post above building a formidable track car. Not a boring stock M anything.

Lots of e46 built cars going against the same e9x and f8x in higher classes.

I mean, the e46 is an objectively great track platform. FCP pays for all of my consumables other than tires and gas (and it's pretty cheap on both of those), it's given me no issues in nearly 25,000 track miles (plus I've driven it 140,000 street miles), it's small, light(ish), predicable, has good steering feel, has engine dynamics I enjoy, and is fast enough that you don't have to throw away the entire lap when a Z06 goes by (unlike, say, a miata).

I also like it as a track platform because I can put my track tires in the back seat, and my tools/chair/etc in the trunk, and not have to trailer to the track (briefly tried that with an e36 M3 dedicated track car, and it almost ruined my enjoyment of tracking).

The idea of building a "formidable track car" clearly seems silly to me-- I've been tracking this thing for 18 years and it still has a back seat, AC, full interior, etc. All the things that'll let me go drive it to pick up my daughter from school, or drive across the country. And it does reasonably well in time attack-- I entered my first time attack event last fall, and won my class by 8 seconds

... and that's just why I like it as a track car-- I like it even more as a street car.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I mean, the e46 is an objectively great track platform. FCP pays for all of my consumables other than tires and gas (and it's pretty cheap on both of those), it's given me no issues in nearly 25,000 track miles (plus I've driven it 140,000 street miles), it's small, light(ish), predicable, has good steering feel, has engine dynamics I enjoy, and is fast enough that you don't have to throw away the entire lap when a Z06 goes by (unlike, say, a miata).

I also like it as a track platform because I can put my track tires in the back seat, and my tools/chair/etc in the trunk, and not have to trailer to the track (briefly tried that with an e36 M3 dedicated track car, and it almost ruined my enjoyment of tracking).

The idea of building a "formidable track car" clearly seems silly to me— I've been tracking this thing for 18 years and it still has a back seat, AC, full interior, etc. All the things that'll let me go drive it to pick up my daughter from school, or drive across the country. And it does reasonably well in time attack— I entered my first time attack event last fall, and won my class by 8 seconds

... and that's just why I like it as a track car— I like it even more as a street car.

Every point applies to e9x for the same purpose and yet it will put down a faster lap without building the “formidable track car”.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by DRLane

Every point applies to e9x for the same purpose and yet it will put down a faster lap without building the “formidable track car”.

I like the e9XM (albeit less than the e46), so I mean the following as matters of degree.

Faster lap-- in a different class. Sooooo... why do we care again?

And, many of the others don't-- it's larger, heavier, uses more gas, uses bigger tires (and uses them up faster), and has worse steering feel.

I never actually tried in my e9X, back when I had it-- do 4 track size tires fit in the back seat?

[14_deltaM3]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Stock S54 vs S65:

In US spec:
333/3.2 = 104 hp/L
414/4.0 = 103.5 hp/L

In euro spec:
343/3.2 = 107.2 hp/L
420/4.0 = 105 hp/L

In maxed out trim (GTS and CSL):
360/3.2 = 112.5 hp/L
444/4.4 = 100.9 hp/L



I actually have driven my M3 across the country a couple times (rallies)

But, for me, the real upside is that I'm coming up on 25,000 track miles.

You’re using the wrong volume figures

E46: 3246
E92: 3999
753cc difference

Calculated using the right numbers, they are the same specific output
Specific Torque is different by a tenth….

Note there’s no hp differences between EU and NA e92 engines - the 414 vs 420 is hp vs bhp. Thats also where the 343 vs 333 hp comes in for the s54.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I like the e9XM (albeit less than the e46), so I mean the following as matters of degree.

Faster lap-- in a different class. Sooooo... why do we care again?

And, many of the others don't-- it's larger, heavier, uses more gas, uses bigger tires (and uses them up faster), and has worse steering feel.

I never actually tried in my e9X, back when I had it-- do 4 track size tires fit in the back seat?

I don't know about worse steering feel but E9x does use consumables more. But that's the price of more speed. Anything that is faster = more consumable costs. The costs of tracking a GT3 regularly will make the M3 look like a Miata in terms of running costs. Yet I run into dozens of GT3s on track, quite possibly the most popular track day car besides BMWs and S2000s... running cost doesn't deter the owners.

And same applies, FCP Euro makes saves me on some consumables (went through many sets of pricey OEM rotors) and you can run less grippy tires if you want to save on tire costs etc. I got 8 track days from a set of Yokohama AD08R, they lasted so long they heat cycled out before it ran out of tread.

As for gas, the difference between 5mpg for a e92 vs 7mpg for a e46 on track is not that different. Street MPG obviously is different.

And yes, 4 tires fit in the back seat of the E9x. It's a bigger car so more interior and trunk space than a E46. Bonus for E90 owners as having back doors make loading wheels and tires much easier!

[RugbyBro]

Lol this thread is funny:

E46 is a soft, clapped out beater car that needs a shit ton of aftermarket help to keep up with its younger brothers on track

E9X sounds like angels crying when it isn’t sitting in a shop getting fixed and can’t even beat a minivan off the line in the real world

F8X is a literal video game that sounds like dog doo doo being blown thru a vuvuzela and will more than likely put you into a ditch just for looking at the throttle

Did I miss anyone?

But in reality these are all amazing cars so what’s the point in arguing - they all represent the eras they where made in. Considering any of the them “not a M3” is pretty dumb… I cant stand the look of them but G8X is 100% a M3 too.

[PYE46M3]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

Lol this thread is funny:

E46 is a soft, clapped out beater car that needs a shit ton of aftermarket help to keep up with its younger brothers on track

E9X sounds like angels crying when it isn’t sitting in a shop getting fixed and can’t even beat a minivan off the line in the real world

F8X is a literal video game that sounds like dog doo doo being blown thru a vuvuzela and will more than likely put you into a ditch just for looking at the throttle

Did I miss anyone?

But in reality these are all amazing cars so what’s the point in arguing - they all represent the eras they where made in. Considering any of the them “not a M3” is pretty dumb… I cant stand the look of them but G8X is 100% a M3 too.

If it is not an E chassis car then it is not a real M car. It's some diluted down marketing garbage... that's why they came up with a retarded badge that reads ///M4. They even diluted down LSB and Phoenix Yellow and called them YMB and AY... they effedd that up too... and its been constant eff ups ever since... That's exactly why they went with F chassis code

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by PYE46M3

If it is not an E chassis car then it is not a real M car. It's some diluted down marketing garbage... that's why they came up with a retarded badge that reads ///M4. They even diluted down LSB and Phoenix Yellow and called them YMB and AY... they effedd that up too... and its been constant eff ups ever since... That's exactly why they went with F chassis code

Strongly disagree - having driven all three on track & autox, they all share the same driving DNA and I would easily be happy owning any of them.

You may not like it but a G82 M4 is absolutely spanking any non G-chassis M3 in performance.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

Strongly disagree - having driven all three on track & autox, they all share the same driving DNA and I would easily be happy owning any of them.

You may not like it but a G82 M4 is absolutely spanking any non G-chassis M3 in performance.

Wait. You’re telling me, if we give the engineering teams several years and nearly unlimited resources (relative) they’ll release a better performing version of their previous work? Unbelievable…

It just keeps happening. Weird

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by DRLane

Wait. You’re telling me, if we give the engineering teams several years and nearly unlimited resources (relative) they’ll release a better performing version of their previous work? Unbelievable…

It just keeps happening. Weird

Funnily enough the G is the only M3 I have no desire to own

Well that and the E30 *flame suit on*

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

Funnily enough the G is the only M3 I have no desire to own

Well that and the E30 *flame suit on*

Yeah, but just because it’s undesirable doesn’t make it worse. I don’t want a f8x and yet I’m very aware it’s a stronger platform.

I would gladly drive the Honest Assembly e30.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by DRLane

Yeah, but just because it’s undesirable doesn’t make it worse. I don’t want a f8x and yet I’m very aware it’s a stronger platform.

I would gladly drive the Honest Assembly e30.

So what you're saying is, being faster doesn't make it a more enjoyable street car or better track car?

I agree

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by 14_deltaM3

You’re using the wrong volume figures

E46: 3246
E92: 3999
753cc difference

Calculated using the right numbers, they are the same specific output
Specific Torque is different by a tenth….

Note there’s no hp differences between EU and NA e92 engines - the 414 vs 420 is hp vs bhp. Thats also where the 343 vs 333 hp comes in for the s54.

yes, I know about hp vs bhp-- was just getting ahead of anyone comparing bhp to hp.

365nm/3.246 = 112.45 nm/L
400/3.999 = 100.03 nl/L

The S54's specific torque is more than 10% greater than the S65s.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by Obioban

So what you're saying is, being faster doesn't make it a more enjoyable street car or better track car?

I agree

100%. For me… But objectively one is better than the other.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by DRLane

100%. For me… But objectively one is better than the other.

Objectively one is faster than another.

If that extra speed doesn’t make it the car more efficient enjoyable, I would disagree with the word “better”.

The F8X/Gwhatever (I care so little that I don't actually know the chassis code) is absolutely not "better" for me-- shit steering, engine dynamics I hate, garbage manual or automatic as trans options, etc. "Worse" for sure-- despite being faster.