E9x M3 vs. E46 M3 Driving Experience (2021 Edition)

[TboneS54]

To be fair, the S54 is a much more exciting engine to wring out.

S65 reminds me of the N52 a bit. Too good, too smooth, too linear. Doesn't mean it's bad whatsoever, but it lacks character.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by TboneS54

To be fair, the S54 is a much more exciting engine to wring out.

S65 reminds me of the N52 a bit. Too good, too smooth, too linear. Doesn't mean it's bad whatsoever, but it lacks character.

Yeah-- I think the S65 feels understressed. It was clearly designed to be a stroker for the F8X, and the lower piston speeds resulting from that means 8400rpm in the s65 doesn't feel like the engine is at the same limit the same way 8000rpm feels in the s54.

[TboneS54]

Ya S54 feels like it's going to explode every time, what an event. Of course, many of us have bolt ons that increase that, but even a stock s54 is an event.

[PYE46M3]

This is M3post. yall will never convince this crowd that the S54 is better than S65 and that the E46 is more fun to drive than E9X. They will roast you the way they roasted me throughout this thread.

[TboneS54]

And we own both lol

[Obioban]

Does my s85 put me in the mix to compare the engines? It’s pretty much s65 +25%…

[JRF]

SMG only is the #1 M of all time? Mmmm.... 'kay.

[14_deltaM3]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Does my s85 put me in the mix to compare the engines? It’s pretty much s65 +25%…

In less than 5 years, we will all be lamenting having not bought an m5/6 v10 when they were DIRT CHEAP. That engine really is one of a kind.

I was THIS close to buying a stick shift before settling on my euro spec e36. I just couldn’t stomach the repair costs for the inevitable work it would need at the time.

[2008M36MT]

Originally Posted by PYE46M3

This is M3post. yall will never convince this crowd that the S54 is better than S65 and that the E46 is more fun to drive than E9X. They will roast you the way they roasted me throughout this thread.

Seriously though, in what sense is an S54 demonstrably better than a S65? HP? Nope. Torque? Nope. Sound? Nope. Reliability? Who gives a fuck, that’s not why we buy cars with these engine.
Put someone in a car who knows nothing about BMW, guaranteed 99% of them will select the S65. The others just have mental issues, but that’s a legitimate excuse.

[PYE46M3]

Originally Posted by 2008M36MT

Seriously though, in what sense is an S54 demonstrably better than a S65? HP? Nope. Torque? Nope. Sound? Nope. Reliability? Who gives a fuck, that’s not why we buy cars with these engine.
Put someone in a car who knows nothing about BMW, guaranteed 99% of them will select the S65. The others just have mental issues, but that’s a legitimate excuse.

K

[TboneS54]

S54 makes more hp & torque (for its displacement), sounds better, easier/cheaper to rebuild (iron block), goes 300k. Vanos can have issues.

The e9x m3 sounds better out the tail pipe, but not the sound of the engine from the driver's seat. S54 is an experience; S65 is fairly boring.

S54 also sounds better with CF plenum than S65 does with CF plenum, though it's close. I'm not saying anything "bad" about the S65. But the CSL/S54 is a masterpiece.

[2008M36MT]

Originally Posted by TboneS54

S54 makes more hp & torque (for its displacement), sounds better, easier/cheaper to rebuild (iron block), goes 300k. Vanos can have issues.

The e9x m3 sounds better out the tail pipe, but not the sound of the engine from the driver's seat. S54 is an experience; S65 is fairly boring.

S54 also sounds better with CF plenum than S65 does with CF plenum, though it's close. I'm not saying anything "bad" about the S65. But the CSL/S54 is a masterpiece.

The only time I’ve ever heard someone say an S54 sounds better than an S65.
Maintenance/reliability is irrelevant otherwise we should be driving LSX cars.
I’ve owned S52, S54 and S65 powered cars. The crappiest experience was the S54.
We can just agree to disagree.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by TboneS54

S54 makes more hp & torque (for its displacement), sounds better, easier/cheaper to rebuild (iron block), goes 300k. Vanos can have issues.

The e9x m3 sounds better out the tail pipe, but not the sound of the engine from the driver's seat. S54 is an experience; S65 is fairly boring.

S54 also sounds better with CF plenum than S65 does with CF plenum, though it's close. I'm not saying anything "bad" about the S65. But the CSL/S54 is a masterpiece.

Yep.

[PYE46M3]

Originally Posted by 2008M36MT

The only time I’ve ever heard someone say an S54 sounds better than an S65.
Maintenance/reliability is irrelevant otherwise we should be driving LSX cars.
I’ve owned S52, S54 and S65 powered cars. The crappiest experience was the S54.
We can just agree to disagree.

ok so your opinion > our opinion. I own a Z4M and an E46 M3, that's how much I like the S54 and enjoy working on it. And it has an oil dipstick If you enjoy S65 more then good for you, neither one is a bad experience. Some just prefer one over the other.

[2008M36MT]

Originally Posted by PYE46M3

ok so your opinion > our opinion. I own a Z4M and an E46 M3, that's how much I like the S54 and enjoy working on it. And it has an oil dipstick

My friend, you’re saying that I’m not, so I appreciate it. As I said before, we can agree to disagree. I had an S54 car as well(in fact S54 and S65 at same time). Ease of work on an an engine, reliability or how it is when it’s modified, don’t make an engine for me. The way it sounds, the power and torque, the redline in stock form are all in favor of the S65. The S54 is low on power, torque less and uninspired. The S52 sounded better from what I can remember.

[14_deltaM3]

Originally Posted by TboneS54

S54 makes more hp & torque (for its displacement), sounds better, easier/cheaper to rebuild (iron block), goes 300k. Vanos can have issues.

The e9x m3 sounds better out the tail pipe, but not the sound of the engine from the driver's seat. S54 is an experience; S65 is fairly boring.

S54 also sounds better with CF plenum than S65 does with CF plenum, though it's close. I'm not saying anything "bad" about the S65. But the CSL/S54 is a masterpiece.

I’m going to ignore the sound stuff - not because it’s necessarily wrong (though I and most of the community don’t agree with it), but because it’s subjective. For example, an opinion widely shared by people with any EU e36s is that s54s sound far less good than the European e36s m3s that came before, with none of the coarseness, and better intake resonance, stock.

Everything else you’re saying is either objectively incorrect (HP/L measurements, for example, on stock cars) or at best a subjective issue that’s easily argued the other way (like the v8 engine is “fairly boring”.. sure).

Also..300k?? Are people driving cross country on a Daily basis, for 2 years straight? It’s a meaningless point that, I think, is being advanced to suggest the s54 is somehow better because it’s bulletproof (it’s clearly not). No one except the few people willing to own a car with over 200,000 miles will care about it. Also, BMW stopped development on that engine for a reason- they’ve published previously that the engine was at the maximum of its development in terms of performance, and either needed turbocharging or a different engine to get there. They couldn’t bore that block out further for greater discplacement without other issues.

The extent of hype that’s dominated certain communities for the e46 is ludicrous. Stock for stock, these two cars shouldn’t be compared. the argument that is now being advanced by some that goes something like “but it’s better if modded if I do X,Y,Z (the great aftermarket)” is silly for the same reasons such comparisons always have been. Track focused modding is a separate thing, and ultimately, still silly because of how much higher an e92s performance potential can go being a newer and more sophisticated platform.

When it’s all said and done, these are very different cars from 2 different eras of car design and technology. No one should really be cross shopping them, as they present 2 completely different use cases and performance envelopes.

If what we’re talking an out is that someone just “likes” one over the other, then great. Personally, if I’m looking for an early 2000s driving experience in a collector car, I’d be buying a 996 and not a “boring” e46.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by 14_deltaM3

Everything else you’re saying is either objectively incorrect (HP/L measurements, for example, on stock cars) or at best a subjective issue that’s easily argued the other way (like the v8 engine is “fairly boring”.. sure).

Stock S54 vs S65:

In US spec:
333/3.2 = 104 hp/L
414/4.0 = 103.5 hp/L

In euro spec:
343/3.2 = 107.2 hp/L
420/4.0 = 105 hp/L

In maxed out trim (GTS and CSL):
360/3.2 = 112.5 hp/L
444/4.4 = 100.9 hp/L

Originally Posted by 14_deltaM3

Also..300k?? Are people driving cross country on a Daily basis, for 2 years straight? It’s a meaningless point that, I think, is being advanced to suggest the s54 is somehow better because it’s bulletproof (it’s clearly not). No one except the few people willing to own a car with over 200,000 miles will care about it. Also, BMW stopped development on that engine for a reason- they’ve published previously that the engine was at the maximum of its development in terms of performance, and either needed turbocharging or a different engine to get there. They couldn’t bore that block out further for greater discplacement without other issues.

I actually have driven my M3 across the country a couple times (rallies)

But, for me, the real upside is that I'm coming up on 25,000 track miles.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by 2008M36MT

My friend, you’re saying that I’m not, so I appreciate it. As I said before, we can agree to disagree. I had an S54 car as well(in fact S54 and S65 at same time). Ease of work on an an engine, reliability or how it is when it’s modified, don’t make an engine for me. The way it sounds, the power and torque, the redline in stock form are all in favor of the S65. The S54 is low on power, torque less and uninspired. The S52 sounded better from what I can remember.

The S54 has the 3rd highest torque/L of any NA engine of all time.
The S54 has more torque than the S52 at every RPM.
The S54 makes similar torque to the S65 until ~5000 rpm.

In fact the S54 only makes 26 lb/ft less torque than the S65 at peak, despite being nearly a liter down! In a significantly lighter car. The e46 M3 feels torquier than the e9X M3.

Torque seems like a weird area to pick on the e46M, as an e9XM owner. My S54 makes more torque/lb than my V10 car

[lagunablue1]

What's with the level of inferiority complex in this thread?

The E46 M3 and E92 M3 are both fantastic cars that follow a very similar formula and both have their own unique flaws.

There is no "correct" answer, neither is "better" than the other, just different.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by lagunablue1

What's with the level of inferiority complex in this thread?

The E46 M3 and E92 M3 are both fantastic cars that follow a very similar formula and both have their own unique flaws.

There is no "correct" answer, neither is "better" than the other, just different.

Welp

[TboneS54]

Inferiority complex? lol

Just stating facts, which some people seem to have trouble with.

[PYE46M3]

The only way to bring the E46/E9x crowd together is by inviting the F80 M3 folks into this thread so they can tell us how much better their torque monster digital cars are compared to outdated E chassis analog M3s.