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      01-19-2021, 04:19 PM   #1
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Mobil 1 10w-60, anyone tried it or know anything about it?

Come across Mobil 1 10w-60 shopping for 10w-60 oil, only saw it mentioned in a few threads at the UK m3cutter forum, none here (0w-40/5w-50 aside).

Looking at it's specs it seems to be slightly better than the Castrol 10w-60! (wider VI, slightly thinner when cold), sulphur content is slightly higher though, not sure what that entails?
Couldn't find the HTHS for the Castrol though, anyone know what it is? (and if so, where you found it)

10 lts (2x5) of Mobil 10w-60 I can get for £91 from Opie oils.
10 lts (2x8 + 2x1) of Castrol 10w-60 is £124 (from Opie and an ebayer)

Am I missing something here? Something wrong with Mobil??
AFAIK Mobil is a really good make of oil right?
(Oh, yes I know the Mobil was never approved by BMW )

PS Sticking to 10w-60 as I'll be replacing bearings with custom mixed & measured ACL ones (hopefully next month!). And hence 10 lts, not 9.

Helmsman I saw you replied to one of the m3cutter threads (yrs ago, lol), you thought they were talking about 0-40, they weren't, they were talking about 10-60 .
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Does oil analysis work for finding wearing rod bearings? Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65.

Last edited by Assimilator1; 01-28-2021 at 01:09 PM..
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      01-19-2021, 10:11 PM   #2
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M1 10W60 is not available in the USA - as far as I can tell, which probably contributes to the lack of dialog about the M1 10W60 product on the forums. It seems pretty good, and even has 1300ppm zinc for added wear protection.
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      01-20-2021, 03:41 PM   #3
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Thanks, interesting, that extra Zinc isn't going to hurt the cats is it?
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Does oil analysis work for finding wearing rod bearings? Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65.
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      01-20-2021, 05:45 PM   #4
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Zinc ppm vs. Cats

It's a good question. Certainly high levels of phosphorus can coat the catalytic converter(s) but how high ppm is too high for either phosphorus or zinc? If we look at the October 2019 edition of the Mobil 1 Product Guide (attached) we can see the zinc and phosphorus parts per million (ppm) for the M1 oils sold in the USA.

The M1 15W50 has 1300 ppm of zinc and the M1 5W50 FS X2 (that I used to run before moving to BE Bearings) has 1100 ppm of zinc. In summary, I don't know how much zinc ppm is too high to damage catalysts with long term use, but I'll bet the oil companies do, because the M1 Racings oils listed are in the ~1800 zinc ppm levels.

See screenshot and M1 Product Guide attached below.
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      01-20-2021, 09:18 PM   #5
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Nice one, thanks
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Does oil analysis work for finding wearing rod bearings? Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65.
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      01-22-2021, 06:53 AM   #6
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I've only just noticed that the 15w-50 has the same zinc level as the 10w-60, any idea if the 15w-50 is used by any manufacturers for road cars?
That said, your snippet there shows road going Porsche's up to '98, which have cats, so the zinc level should be ok?

Oh and where did you find the Mobil 10w-60 zinc info?
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      01-22-2021, 05:41 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Assimilator1 View Post
I've only just noticed that the 15w-50 has the same zinc level as the 10w-60, any idea if the 15w-50 is used by any manufacturers for road cars? That said, your snippet there shows road going Porsche's up to '98, which have cats, so the zinc level should be ok? Oh and where did you find the Mobil 10w-60 zinc info?
I don't think the M1 15W50 is a factory fill for any OEM, because the Mobil-1 product guide attached above doesn't show any OEM approvals. Yep, some of the prior to '98 road going Porsches had catalytic converters. Additionally, the M1 15W50 has been on the market for a long time. All of which seems to indicate a 1300ppm Zn level is okay. I found the information in the screenshot at this link below.

https://www.jmgshop.com/engine-oil--...urbo-102-c.asp
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      01-28-2021, 12:15 PM   #8
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Update, apparently the HTHS of Castrol edge professional is 5.2 (so the Mobil 1 is better there too!), the rest of the specs are the same as the non pro version, are they the same oils?

Anyone know? [edit] Looks like it
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Does oil analysis work for finding wearing rod bearings? Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65.

Last edited by Assimilator1; 01-28-2021 at 12:26 PM..
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      01-29-2021, 12:28 AM   #9
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I imported a good bit of a couple years back and have been using it. It runs a little better than all but the BMW branded 10w60. Warms up slow, but very cold starts are more quiet. Consumption is the lowest of all that I’ve used including on the track. Car doesn’t seem to pull as hard in the too end, which makes sense given the superior HTHS that MAY be causing more parasitic drag. All observations are obviously subjective here.
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      01-30-2021, 08:02 AM   #10
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Thanks for you input, good to hear.

************************

Regarding my question on Sulphur, I found this useful article.

The main points:
' Historically sulfur when used in lubricating oil formulation chemistry it has been used as an additive for an antioxidant, part of antiwear (AW) compounding, extreme pressure (EP), and enhanced lubricity properties (the oil's ability to lubricate under boundary metal-to-metal contact conditions).

Emission regulations in engine oils represents the area of most change in limiting the amount of sulfur allowed in today’s lubricants. Reduction in fuels and engine oil has impacted lubricating properties required for fuel injectors and other engine components by reducing the lubricity properties in these products. This requires new additive chemistry to fill the performance requirements in these products. Also, since sulfur acts as an effective antioxidant alternatives are more in demand.

......

The reduction in sulfur using Groups II or III base oil, which are in wide use, does have the advantage of allowing formulators to control the level and type of sulfur additive compounding in the finished lubricant product. This also reduces the presence of active sulfur in the base oils which can form acids with the presence of moisture and other chemicals.


It seems high levels of sulphur are bad news for cats, but seeing as Mobile one meets or exceeds ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4 spec, it can't be at problem levels. (Btw, it only has about 8% more sulphur than the Castrol).
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Does oil analysis work for finding wearing rod bearings? Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65.

Last edited by Assimilator1; 01-30-2021 at 08:29 AM..
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      02-25-2021, 02:13 PM   #11
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Regarding SA levels, that is super high for direct injection engine. However, S65 is not direct injection, so no worries there. Mobil1 across the range of their Euro oils that are High-SAPS have very high sulfated ash, much higher than competition. Their additive package is super strong, where it is actually a problem for direct injection cars (CBU).
Zinc level will not be an issue as long as your vehicle is not burning oil. Higher levels of ZDDP is there for track use. Both 15W50 and 10W60 are per Mobil1 track oil. 15W50 is in US recommended by GM to use on track in Corvettes.
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      02-25-2021, 02:41 PM   #12
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I don't know about across their range of euro oils, but the Mobil 1 10w/60 has SA that's only 8% higher than the Castrol 10w/60.

Good to know about the zinc level, although I've no idea how much oil, if any that mine burns, except in the less than 1k miles I have driven it it didn't seemed to have used any.

What's the issue with SA and DI? (and what's CBU stand for?)
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Does oil analysis work for finding wearing rod bearings? Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65.

Last edited by Assimilator1; 02-28-2021 at 02:05 PM..
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      02-26-2021, 01:38 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Assimilator1 View Post
I don't know about across their range of euro oils, but the Mobil 1 10w/60 has SA that's only 8% higher than the Castrol 10w/60.

Good to know about the zinc level, although I've no idea how much oil, if any that mine burns, except in the less than 2k miles I have driven it it didn't seemed to have used any.

What's the issue with SA and DI? (and what's CBU stand for?)
I really did not look at Castrol 10W60 levels, but Castrol 10W60 is old, specific formula. Mobil1 reformulated all oils starting in 2015 bcs. they moved from primarily using PAO and POE base stocks to GTL base stocks. However, unlike other oil blenders, they drastically increased additive package. Why? Some UOA indicated that TBN retention in M1 is not as strong as Castrol, Shell, Motul etc. But, we are talking here high performance port injected engine, so M1 for track or high performance driving is good as it gets.
Carbon Build Up (CBU). Sulfated ash and phosphorous (SAPS) are main drivers behind CBU. Poorly designed PCV will dump deposits on intake valves, but deposits are made out of SAPS. More SAPS, more deposits. Two things to look to limit CBU:
1. Low SAPS
2. Low Noack (evaporation loss).

Problem with Low-SAPS in high performance engines is that phosphorus is ingredient of ZDDP, which was always main additive to protect from wear in engines. But, there are new oils that use different additives to mitigate for lack of SAPS. Also, there are indications that ZDDP is having adverse effects on timing chain guides etc. So, new API SP for example has specific timing chain test, specific LSPI test and they limited phosphorous to 800ppm. Only SHell Helix 5W40 (Pennzoil in US) is now API SP. Don't hold your breath that M1 or Castrol will fallow that as they rely on ZDDP more then Shell.
As for your consumption, consumption comes from two things:
1. Mechanical damage or design.
2. Naock (evaporation loss).
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      02-28-2021, 03:18 PM   #14
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Ugh, acronym rich! But appreciate the reply still

Do GTL oils have a slightly narrower VI than PAO/POE oils? In my admittedly short search I couldn't find out how well it compared to them, other than "well"

Mobil1 reformulated all oils starting in 2015 bcs
What's bcs?

Carbon Build Up (CBU). Sulfated ash and phosphorous (SAPS) are main drivers behind CBU.
Ok I find that statement confusing, Sulphur and Phosphor lead to Carbon build up?? I thought Carbon build up was largely poorly burnt HCs (oil and fuel), or does that include compounds of Carbon+Sulphur and/or Phosphor?

Re Noack, which oil property/spec is that listed as?

Re burning oil, roger that, I just don't know how much mine burns as I haven't driven it enough (even less than I 1st thought at about 600 miles! That'll change this year ).
What are the consequences of burning off a lot of zinc? O2 sensor problems?

So, going back to Mobil 1 vs Castrol comparison, am I right in saying that although the Mobil 1 has slightly higher SAPs, which could slightly increase CBU on the intake valves in theory, the fact that the S65 has port injection means it shouldn't make any material difference?

For those like me who don't automatically know/remember what all these acronyms mean.

PAO oil - Polyalphaolefin synthetic oil has a much wider Viscosity Index vs mineral oil, amongst other advantages (read link for more in).
POE oil - Polyolester, another synthetic oil, with a wider VI than mineral oils (see graph in above link).
GTL - Gas To Liquids (synthetic oil made from gas, also better than mineral oils, but I couldn't find how precisely it compared to PAO and POE oils).
UOA - Used Oil Analysis (sending off an oil sample to a lab)
TBN - Total Base Number (alkaline additives to counter acid build up)
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      02-28-2021, 04:35 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Assimilator1 View Post
Ugh, acronym rich! But appreciate the reply still

Do GTL oils have a slightly narrower VI than PAO/POE oils? In my admittedly short search I couldn't find out how well it compared to them, other than "well"

Mobil1 reformulated all oils starting in 2015 bcs
What's bcs?

Carbon Build Up (CBU). Sulfated ash and phosphorous (SAPS) are main drivers behind CBU.
Ok I find that statement confusing, Sulphur and Phosphor lead to Carbon build up?? I thought Carbon build up was largely poorly burnt HCs (oil and fuel), or does that include compounds of Carbon+Sulphur and/or Phosphor?

Re Noack, which oil property/spec is that listed as?

Re burning oil, roger that, I just don't know how much mine burns as I haven't driven it enough (even less than I 1st thought at about 600 miles! That'll change this year ).
What are the consequences of burning off a lot of zinc? O2 sensor problems?

So, going back to Mobil 1 vs Castrol comparison, am I right in saying that although the Mobil 1 has slightly higher SAPs, which could slightly increase CBU on the intake valves in theory, the fact that the S65 has port injection means it shouldn't make any material difference?

For those like me who don't automatically know/remember what all these acronyms mean.

PAO oil - Polyalphaolefin synthetic oil has a much wider Viscosity Index vs mineral oil, amongst other advantages (read link for more in).
POE oil - Polyolester, another synthetic oil, with a wider VI than mineral oils (see graph in above link).
GTL - Gas To Liquids (synthetic oil made from gas, also better than mineral oils, but I couldn't find how precisely it compared to PAO and POE oils).
UOA - Used Oil Analysis (sending off an oil sample to a lab)
TBN - Total Base Number (alkaline additives to counter acid build up)
Bcs. Because. Shell is early adopter of Gas to Liquid base (GTL). Mobil1 followed that, but IMO, SHell has better technology. That does not mean Mobil1 oils are less of oil. Mobil1 mixes PAO (Group IV) and Esters (POE or Group V) in oil to achieve what they want.
But it is not as simple as that. It depends what they mixed in lab,whether base stock is heavy or light whether it will have higher VI. Higher VI is not necessarily good. It is good indication how it will affect fuel efficiency. But, this is where I appreciate Mobil1 or Motul. Shell/Pennzoil is very proud that their 0W30 oil has VI of 204. But, they do not post what is HTHS. In engines like S65 everything is about HTHS, VI is irrelevant. Very high VI usually means mediocre HTHS.
EVaporation loss or Noack is something that companies do not post just like that. Noack in port injected cars does not mean a lot. But it indicates what base stock is used in oil. For example, Noack of Mobil1 0W40 is 8.7%. That is excellent achievement for oil like that. How they achieved that? GTL, PAO and POE combination. Noack of Liqui Moly 5W40 (lower Noack is easier to achieve in 5W40 than 0W40 is same base stock is used bcs. less VII) is 11%. That tells you that LM is using Group III base stocks and more VII. Many companies decide to not post these numbers. How I know? There is very good russian web site where a lot of these oils are tested in lab, so very often they test Noack:
https://translate.google.com/transla...B%2F&sandbox=1
Now, this web site does not have 10W60 oils, but reviewing other oils, you can get idea which oil companies are at forefront of research and performance.
Now SAPS. It is oil and fuel, but how much oil? That depends on Noack. Lower Noack, less oil. But deposits itself are constituted from SAPS, as SAPS is extremely hard to burn (reason why oils design for DPF/GPF equipped vehicles are so called Low-SAPS oils, ACEA C3, C2, C5).
In S65 that does not matter. Port injection will solve deposit issue. Only way to 100% mitigate CBU issue in DI engines is duel DI and Port injection. For example VW uses that in European version of their EA888 engines. Toyota uses that in 2GR-FKS engines.
But in S65, or my N52, no worries. Port injection, naturally aspirated engine, no CBU.
So, Mobil1 10W60, bcs. it is so additive rich might be good for S65. Everything in that oil is there to prevent wear at worse conditions.
ZDDP? Oil burn with high ZDDP will create concrete wall in your CAT. Not O2 sensor, but actually ruin your CATs
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      03-01-2021, 03:09 PM   #16
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Cool, good to know, is all your knowledge from just that website?? Sounds like it's more widespread than that?

Re cats and concrete wall, do you mean it would coat the cat's matrix or that it would literally create a barrier across the insides of that cat? (either would be bad news of course!).
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      03-01-2021, 11:59 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Assimilator1 View Post
Cool, good to know, is all your knowledge from just that website?? Sounds like it's more widespread than that?

Re cats and concrete wall, do you mean it would coat the cat's matrix or that it would literally create a barrier across the insides of that cat? (either would be bad news of course!).
Nah, I worked on testing for oil company and as test driver.
But, that was in previous life. Now, use whatever I can to keep up with stuff. Yep, ZDDP will literally destroy your cat. That is why ghere is ongoing attempt to limit ZDDP.
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      03-02-2021, 01:26 PM   #18
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Coating the cat presumably then.
Mind you burning oil is bad news for cats anyway. Hopefully mine doesn't much!
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      03-02-2021, 03:58 PM   #19
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Mobil 1 5W50 FS X2

M1 5W50 FS X2 quite often goes on sale in my area. Recently (Jan to Feb '21) the local NAPA Auto-Parts was selling M1 for $5.95 per quart! I now have BE bearings and was wondering if the M1 5W50 may now be out of the question due to the extra rod bearing clearance. It's worth mentioning that the E9X M3 Owners Manual does allow for the use of oil viscosities other than 10W60 but that's with OEM bearing clearances. Thoughts?
PS:
Sorry to thread jack a 10W60 thread.
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      03-02-2021, 05:18 PM   #20
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Aren't the other grade oils only to be allowed for top up purposes?

Also, BE state to stick with 10w60, so unless you have really cold winters I wouldn't use 5w50 now.
Oil pressure hasn't been tested with BE bearings and 5w50, so who knows if it would be ok or not! Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't.

Care to be a guinea pig and report back over the years? I'd at least hook up an oil pressure gauge!

PS their is a thread discussing 5w50 for these engines , this one https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1592340
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Does oil analysis work for finding wearing rod bearings? Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65.
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      03-02-2021, 06:02 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Assimilator1 View Post
Aren't the other grade oils only to be allowed for top up purposes? Also, BE state to stick with 10w60, so unless you have really cold winters I wouldn't use 5w50 now. Oil pressure hasn't been tested with BE bearings and 5w50, so who knows if it would be ok or not! Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't. Care to be a guinea pig and report back over the years? I'd at least hook up an oil pressure gauge! PS their is a thread discussing 5w50 for these engines , this one https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1592340
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You're right, the other grade oils are for the addition of small quantities only (top up). It's covered on page 206 of the attached owner's manual. I used to top up 10W60 with M1 0W40 and recently ran (made the switch) to M1 5W50 for 18 months prior to the BE bearings install. Many folks have run the 0W40 M1 -> BUT with the OEM bearings. However, the M1 0W40 increased oil consumption over the 10W60 TWS - especially on longer journeys - if I recall correctly. So I'll just stick to the 10W60 now with the BE bearings.
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      03-03-2021, 12:29 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFerry View Post
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You're right, the other grade oils are for the addition of small quantities only (top up). It's covered on page 206 of the attached owner's manual. I used to top up 10W60 with M1 0W40 and recently ran (made the switch) to M1 5W50 for 18 months prior to the BE bearings install. Many folks have run the 0W40 M1 -> BUT with the OEM bearings. However, the M1 0W40 increased oil consumption over the 10W60 TWS - especially on longer journeys - if I recall correctly. So I'll just stick to the 10W60 now with the BE bearings.
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If manufacturer of those bearings call for 10W60, go with it.
5W50 like Redline? Maybe. Redline is very thick 5W50 and its HTHS will be in range of 10W60 Castrol or Mobil1. Mobil1 5W50 HTHS is actually in range of Redline 5W40.
But bcs. of KV100 I would stick to 10W60.
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