Anyone with a 2012-2013 wish they waited for the M4?

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

You are making some very broad generalizations that do not hold up. Most people that I know with an F8X came from another M car (E46, F9X, etc.). Most of them have a 6MT not a DCT. Many of them have many hours of track time and are successfully tracking their F8X. Are there some people that meet your definition? Probably. Were there people that were of those same qualities that purchased F9X Ms when they were new? Probably.

The F8X is a fantastic automobile. You don't have to agree or like the car, but there is no reason to bash the people that chose to purchase one. The F8X is no less an M than the F9X and drivers of both are enthusiasts regardless of their choice.

There are doubtlessly plenty of F8x buyers who are enthusiasts, regardless of 6MT/DCT choice. The endless discussions about 'no torque' are still pretty entertaining. Apparently some people bought an M but thought they were getting an AMG

And those same F8X buyers who plan on tracking the car recognize the choice of fixed headrest seats is terrible... much like E9X track people say it's a fat pig and its brakes are worthless

Again, just because it the new M has attracted the attention of people not traditionally known as enthusiasts does not mean no enthusiasts buy the car. Plenty do. I might get one as well, but it won't stop be from being realistic about it the way I'm realistic about the E46M and E92M

E92 pros:
Heavenly engine/exhaust music
8400rpm redline
last NA M engine
E92 cons:
fuel consumption
lack of torque
fat pig
lack of braking power

F8X pros
lighter
track worthy brakes
lower fuel consumption when DD

F8X cons
sounds like a turbo car
responds like a turbo car - albeit a very good one
integrated headrests mean welding into the car to have a Hans or running bareback


Conclusion: most of the people who bought '12s and '13s were highly aware that a new model was just around the corner. The situation is similar to the '05/'06 E46M: these were the cars with the most bugs ironed out. If you really like the E46M you try to get one of the last years. Same story for the E9X and eventually it'll be the same story for the F8X as well

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by FTS

Ouch!!! I am taking this personally now

As far as I remember you were not part of the turbo crowd

And don't worry, you can spank me around WGI this summer!!

[avantegardestyle]

Originally Posted by JabzSA

I do think that the new M3/M4 looks awesome and aggressive.

Would I sell / trade my E92? Nope. I wont bash those who have jumped ship and gotten the new shiny toy on the block. Good for them.

I love this shape, I love the engine and other aspects and to give me an edge - I will install a SC (fingers crossed). I want to see how the SC with the S65 motors feels....

I've always wanted a M5...but could never afford...the current shape looks nice, but I would prefer the E60. (The shape many "professional journos / critics" hate).

At the end, its in the eye of the beholder. Whatever tickles your fancy. IMO

E60 Looks better than current M5...............there is something about the awkward stance of the e60 M5 that simply is unbeatable by this new m5 which to me is making M nothing more than a trim level rather than a separate division of cars...............

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by avantegardestyle

E60 Looks better than current M5...............there is something about the awkward stance of the e60 M5 that simply is unbeatable by this new m5 which to me is making M nothing more than a trim level rather than a separate division of cars...............

E60 is another one of those bucket list items!

Despite the years it is just awesome. A Lambo engine in a 5 series = win!

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by avantegardestyle

E60 Looks better than current M5...............there is something about the awkward stance of the e60 M5 that simply is unbeatable by this new m5 which to me is making M nothing more than a trim level rather than a separate division of cars...............

i love the E60 looks. i think the F10 is a safer looking car. meaning that most people are going to like it. the E60 had more radical styling which some people loved and some didnt. simple as that.

[MasterP]

I have both. I'm attached to my E92 and I've repurposed it to force me to keep it around.

It's like the older dog you always come back to after playing with the new one, just to let him know he's still your favorite.

I daily my F80, which it's great for. I've tracked it once and I may give it a second chance. It does have a lot of potential, and in stock form is likely much faster than the E92 (I cant tell since my E92 is now track prepped and it's still faster so no baseline, sorry) But typical BMW it's limited by tires, front camber and the brakes are terrible in stock form (track pads are a must, don't even try it). The brakes are "trackworthy" on paper/in design but need help. Don't just think you can change the fluid and run. I was hoping it would be better because sometimes you just want the easy day without swapping pads the day before, unpacking, changing tires, and repacking. But it's still a road car, and it's heavily biased towards that in showroom form. It's comfier, quieter, and the new tech is a big plus for spending time in. NBT is way ahead of the previous CIC, LED headlights are incredible, this DCT is CVT smooth on the lighter settings and the Adaptive suspension is great when you don't feel like the firm ride. I don't mind the noise. I wouldn't say I loved it, but it would not be a deterrent.

I do enjoy driving my E92 still. It's probably the most rewarding and pleasing car to drive that I currently own. There's a directness to it (with some help from mods) that the F80 doesn't have. Yes it sounds better, but it also can get annoying when you've had enough. But I enjoy it in small doses, and it's great I can just grab the keys to it whenever I need my Fix.

They're both pretty different now. My E92 is a Manual and is track prepped. My F80 is DCT and I've left it stock down to the orange reflectors. If I had a newer E92 and had an inkling of regret owning it instead of the new one but wasn't in the position to own both I'd keep the E92 and get over the shiny new thing. You'll probably regret getting rid of it as it has a character I don't think BMW will ever again replicate with the way cars are going. I won't say it's better or worse, but It's different enough the car can stand on it's own and you should enjoy it.

If it were me, I'd sell my 2012-2013 and get a 2009-10 E92 with a manual and as few options as possible, High $20's low $30's. Scoop a deal on a modest F8X or even a used one. Have it all.

[malrash]

Originally Posted by TrakBch

I have both. I'm attached to my E92 and I've repurposed it to force me to keep it around.

It's like the older dog you always come back to after playing with the new one, just to let him know he's still your favorite.

I daily my F80, which it's great for. I've tracked it once and I may give it a second chance. It does have a lot of potential, and in stock form is likely much faster than the E92 (I cant tell since my E92 is now track prepped and it's still faster so no baseline, sorry) But typical BMW it's limited by tires, front camber and the brakes are terrible in stock form (track pads are a must, don't even try it). The brakes are "trackworthy" on paper/in design but need help. Don't just think you can change the fluid and run. I was hoping it would be better because sometimes you just want the easy day without swapping pads the day before, unpacking, changing tires, and repacking. But it's still a road car, and it's heavily biased towards that in showroom form. It's comfier, quieter, and the new tech is a big plus for spending time in. NBT is way ahead of the previous CIC, LED headlights are incredible, this DCT is CVT smooth on the lighter settings and the Adaptive suspension is great when you don't feel like the firm ride. I don't mind the noise. I wouldn't say I loved it, but it would not be a deterrent.

I do enjoy driving my E92 still. It's probably the most rewarding and pleasing car to drive that I currently own. There's a directness to it (with some help from mods) that the F80 doesn't have. Yes it sounds better, but it also can get annoying when you've had enough. But I enjoy it in small doses, and it's great I can just grab the keys to it whenever I need my Fix.

They're both pretty different now. My E92 is a Manual and is track prepped. My F80 is DCT and I've left it stock down to the orange reflectors. If I had a newer E92 and had an inkling of regret owning it instead of the new one but wasn't in the position to own both I'd keep the E92 and get over the shiny new thing. You'll probably regret getting rid of it as it has a character I don't think BMW will ever again replicate with the way cars are going. I won't say it's better or worse, but It's different enough the car can stand on it's own and you should enjoy it.

If it were me, I'd sell my 2012-2013 and get a 2009-10 E92 with a manual and as few options as possible, High $20's low $30's. Scoop a deal on a modest F8X or even a used one. Have it all.

Couldn't have said it better myself. It is the fear of missing my current car that prevents me from moving on. The only fix appears to have more than one car, maybe soon/

But not letting go of the e92, unless in a moment of madness/

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by malrash

Couldn't have said it better myself. It is the fear of missing my current car that prevents me from moving on. The only fix appears to have more than one car, maybe soon/

But not letting go of the e92, unless in a moment of madness/

+1, a great post

You definitely need more than an M in your life. My E46M has now taken the DD role after being a track car for three seasons. Now the E92 takes the track!

A very cool thing about one day getting an f80M is that I'd have three consecutive generations!

[modkrazy]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

E92 pros:
Heavenly engine/exhaust music
8400rpm redline
last NA M engine
E92 cons:
fuel consumption
lack of torque
fat pig
lack of braking power

A lot of this is incorrect. The car does not lack for torque, unless you're talking stoplight racing turbo hatchbacks. Once you factor in the gearing, this car is putting down more torque than a Corvette, which is rated much higher at the crank. The only people really complaining about this are the guys that whined about having to shift down from 7th to pass people on the highway. If you bought an M and are complaining about downshifting to pass people, you bought the car just for the badge and your opinion is worthless.

It is indeed a fat pig, but so is the new car. Most optioned examples we've seen weigh less than 50lbs less, and even stripper M4s are only clocking in about 100lbs less than stripper E92s. If you want to rip all your sound-deadening material out like the new car does, you could lower that gap further.

The brakes do not lack power, and will not stop you any slower than a nice BBK. The issue is prolonged reliability and consistency on the track. I exceeded the stock brakes' ability to keep cool by my second track day. Currently have better pads and fluid, which seems to be sufficient for now, but inevitably will need a BBK. You buy the BBK for their ability to stay cool and continue to deliver lap after lap. If you are exclusively street driving, then the only reason to complain about the brakes is cosmetic... perhaps a valid complaint given the price of the car new, but ultimately a shallow one.

A pro for the E92 is that its powertrain and overall balance make it a supremely controllable, smooth, and invigorating track car. Which is why people should buy Ms, not because it is the most expensive trim level for that series of cars (which is sadly the main reason people buy Ms). Another pro is that since the E9xs are now old hat, all the yuppie posers have moved on to the new chassis, while the E9x is still not quite cheap enough to have an influx of the riff-raff that put ground effects and hella-flush wheels on everything. Plus all the issues of the car have by now been deeply enumerated and there is a DIY for pretty much anything you may have to fix. Plus parts are cheaper.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by modkrazy

A lot of this is incorrect. The car does not lack for torque, unless you're talking stoplight racing turbo hatchbacks. Once you factor in the gearing, this car is putting down more torque than a Corvette, which is rated much higher at the crank. The only people really complaining about this are the guys that whined about having to shift down from 7th to pass people on the highway. If you bought an M and are complaining about downshifting to pass people, you bought the car just for the badge and your opinion is worthless.

It is indeed a fat pig, but so is the new car. Most optioned examples we've seen weigh less than 50lbs less, and even stripper M4s are only clocking in about 100lbs less than stripper E92s. If you want to rip all your sound-deadening material out like the new car does, you could lower that gap further.

The brakes do not lack power, and will not stop you any slower than a nice BBK. The issue is prolonged reliability and consistency on the track. I exceeded the stock brakes' ability to keep cool by my second track day. Currently have better pads and fluid, which seems to be sufficient for now, but inevitably will need a BBK. You buy the BBK for their ability to stay cool and continue to deliver lap after lap. If you are exclusively street driving, then the only reason to complain about the brakes is cosmetic... perhaps a valid complaint given the price of the car new, but ultimately a shallow one.

A pro for the E92 is that its powertrain and overall balance make it a supremely controllable, smooth, and invigorating track car. Which is why people should buy Ms, not because it is the most expensive trim level for that series of cars (which is sadly the main reason people buy Ms). Another pro is that since the E9xs are now old hat, all the yuppie posers have moved on to the new chassis, while the E9x is still not quite cheap enough to have an influx of the riff-raff that put ground effects and hella-flush wheels on everything. Plus all the issues of the car have by now been deeply enumerated and there is a DIY for pretty much anything you may have to fix. Plus parts are cheaper.

If you read my first post in page 4 you'll see where I was coming from

You are right, I should have written 'track worthy'. The F80 brakes are track-worthier. We will see once people are running it harder what happens. Just because it says Brembo and has 4 pistons per caliper does not mean it is a track worthy set of brakes

As far as weight is concerned, a stripper F80 weighs 3530lb with a full gas tank and no shenanigans. I'll weigh my stripper E92 once it comes out of hibernation and doubt there's even 50lb difference between them. Regardless I'll post the weight here.

It is clear which car I prefer. As for tracking and brakes, I have the PFC Z54/Z45 BBK on order

To make a long answer short: you are preaching to the choir. I voted with my wallet and bought a 2013 new instead of waiting and buying a M4 for the same price.

[modkrazy]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

You are right, I should have written 'track worthy'. The F80 brakes are track-worthier. We will see once people are running it harder what happens. Just because it says Brembo and has 4 pistons per caliper does not mean it is a track worthy set of brakes

For what it's worth, I have a couple of friends with F8x cars that they track, and they still had to upgrade their pads and fluid (I forgot to mention that steel lines are a must for the E9x brakes), but are now perfectly happy with the results. Definitely "track-worthier".

Of course, there will always be that asshole that pays for ceramic brakes, adaptive suspension, and 19" wheels, only to throw it all in the parts bin for some gaudy brembos, spine-shattering coil-overs, and "sick-ass dubs brah".

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by modkrazy

For what it's worth, I have a couple of friends with F8x cars that they track, and they still had to upgrade their pads and fluid (I forgot to mention that steel lines are a must for the E9x brakes), but are now perfectly happy with the results. Definitely "track-worthier".

Of course, there will always be that asshole that pays for ceramic brakes, adaptive suspension, and 19" wheels, only to throw it all in the parts bin for some gaudy brembos, spine-shattering coil-overs, and "sick-ass dubs brah".

Well once they're replaced the ceramic rotors you can be sure they'll move to steel brakes

I wish PFC built a set of DD rotors for the ceramics. Imagine a 400mm pfc dd! That would be pretty spectacular

[davesaddiction]

Originally Posted by TrakBch

I have both. I'm attached to my E92 and I've repurposed it to force me to keep it around.

It's like the older dog you always come back to after playing with the new one, just to let him know he's still your favorite.

...

I do enjoy driving my E92 still. It's probably the most rewarding and pleasing car to drive that I currently own. There's a directness to it (with some help from mods) that the F80 doesn't have. Yes it sounds better, but it also can get annoying when you've had enough. But I enjoy it in small doses, and it's great I can just grab the keys to it whenever I need my Fix.

They're both pretty different now. My E92 is a Manual and is track prepped. My F80 is DCT and I've left it stock down to the orange reflectors. If I had a newer E92 and had an inkling of regret owning it instead of the new one but wasn't in the position to own both I'd keep the E92 and get over the shiny new thing. You'll probably regret getting rid of it as it has a character I don't think BMW will ever again replicate with the way cars are going. I won't say it's better or worse, but It's different enough the car can stand on it's own and you should enjoy it.

Well stated.

[SYT_Shadow]

So far BMW has managed to build every M generation different enough that an argument can be made for owning all of them.

The E36M is the ugly duckling of the family because in the US it was horrible neutered

[JTO24]

I will probably get an F80 m3 after LCI; I like the car but am in no rush to get rid of my e92. I still love this thing! I don't think it looks dated at all. My only regret (if one could call it that) is that I wasn't able to get a Jerez Black/Fox Red E90 sedan back in 2011 lol one of my favorite car/color combos.

[V8FunNaturally]

2013 E92 M3, 1 1/2 year of ownership. Absolutely not ! The m4/3 is a 435is with an M badge on it. Having reviewed the entire technical pdf on the S55 (the m4 engine) it really is a N55 engine small variation and the car should be called 435is.
The m4 is not a pedigree type car like the E92 M3, it's a generic car. IT's not in the same category of cars than the E92 M3 in my opinion. I would compare the V8 M3 to a porsche but the m4 to an audi S5 (and not RS5) nothing more.
I have yet to see a successor from bmw for the e92 m3. I wanted to pay the price of an new m4 to get a factory order E92 m3, not the other way round.
A 911 GT3 is too expensive. So the last real M3 (E92) is perfect.

[dmk08]

Originally Posted by V8FunNaturally

2013 E92 M3, 1 1/2 year of ownership. Absolutely not ! The m4/3 is a 435is with an M badge on it. Having reviewed the entire technical pdf on the S55 (the m4 engine) it really is a N55 engine small variation and the car should be called 435is.
The m4 is not a pedigree type car like the E92 M3, it's a generic car. IT's not in the same category of cars than the E92 M3 in my opinion. I would compare the V8 M3 to a porsche but the m4 to an audi S5 (and not RS5) nothing more.
I have yet to see a successor from bmw for the e92 m3. I wanted to pay the price of an new m4 to get a factory order E92 m3, not the other way round.
A 911 GT3 is too expensive. So the last real M3 (E92) is perfect.

Wrong on so many levels.

[V8FunNaturally]

Originally Posted by dmk08

Wrong on so many levels.

no, absolutely true especially the generic engine.

[dmk08]

Originally Posted by V8FunNaturally

no, absolutely true especially the generic engine.

"Despite the similarities in specification between the new M3 and M4's engine and that of the earlier 1-series M coupe, Biermann, reveals the two engines share little apart from their bore and stroke measurements. "They are completely different, not only in construction but internally and their respective induction processes," he says, adding, "They're worlds apart."

- See more at: http://autoweek.com/article/car-news....XTJmZeYr.dpuf

[Law]

Originally Posted by dmk08

"Despite the similarities in specification between the new M3 and M4's engine and that of the earlier 1-series M coupe, Biermann, reveals the two engines share little apart from their bore and stroke measurements. "They are completely different, not only in construction but internally and their respective induction processes," he says, adding, "They're worlds apart."

- See more at: http://autoweek.com/article/car-news....XTJmZeYr.dpuf

Per BMW official technical publication:
As the S55 engine is based off the N55 engine, 75% of the engine components were adopted from the N55 production engine and the other 25% of the engine components are new developments.

The whole S55 being "completely different" or "sharing nothing" with the N55 is a myth that BMW themselves have invalidated through their official publications.

Biermann's chat with Autoweek was conducted well before the F8X official release and coincided with other marketing myths later proven to be false, including the myth that the S55 would have 3,027 cc (compare to 2,979 cc of N55).
This was later proven to be false as seen on BMW's own official S55 technical document as well as on the specs advertised on BMW's own website, which list the S55 has having identical bore/stroke/displacement & compression ratio as the N55.



To say "completely different" misrepresents the facts.
Completely implies completeness, totality, i.e., 100%

With 25% new developments, a more accurate description would be partially different, i.e., based off [the N55].

[dmk08]

Originally Posted by Law

Per BMW official technical publication:
As the S55 engine is based off the N55 engine, 75% of the engine components were adopted from the N55 production engine and the other 25% of the engine components are new developments.

The whole S55 being "completely different" or "sharing nothing" with the N55 is a myth that BMW themselves have invalidated through their official publications.

Biermann's chat with Autoweek was conducted well before the F8X official release and coincided with other marketing myths later proven to be false, including the myth that the S55 would have 3,027 cc (compare to 2,979 cc of N55).
This was later proven to be false as seen on BMW's own official S55 technical document as well as on the specs advertised on BMW's own website, which list the S55 has having identical bore/stroke/displacement & compression ratio as the N55.



To say "completely different" misrepresents the facts.
Completely implies completeness, totality, i.e., 100%

With 25% new developments, a more accurate description would be partially different, i.e., based off [the N55].

75% adopted from does not mean 75% the same. Oh goodness gracious. I agree tho not 'completely' different.

To that point tho it's also not "really a N55 engine small variation".

[SYT_Shadow]

Well, at least M gave the S55 a closed deck