Tracking the M3 with ESS 535 Supercharger in 100+ degree weather (video)

[radiantm3]

So before I go any further, I want to point out that this post isn't intended to make anyone look bad or be biased. I'm just posting whatever facts I have. I had the ESS 535 kit installed on my car a few weeks ago and having been loving every moment of it. I won't go into details about how good it is because that's already been done many times. I just want to post what I thought was a very interesting result after my day at the track with the kit.

About a month ago I was at Thunderhill Raceway. Weather was somewhere in the low to mid 90's and my best lap of the day was a 2:11.7. This was before I had the supercharger and I had my 18" track wheels with Pilot Sport Cups.

Yesterday I returned to Thunderhill with my recently installed vt535 kit. I was pretty slow all morning (probably because I witnessed a Porsche GT3 spin into a wall in the first session and point-by passing in my group), running anywhere from 2:15 to 2:18. Temps were in the high 80's to low 90's and I was running my cup tires. Halfway through the day I noticed my left front tire starting to cord on the outside. Lesson learned: 1.8 degrees of negative camber is not enough to run competition tires. So I switch back to my 19" street wheels that have Pilot Super Sports on them. Strangely enough my times start to get faster. But the reason for that is proof that it's not a good idea for a novice driver to run DOT competition tires or slicks. My Cup tires never made much noise so I was always afraid to test the limits of the tire. I've posted a few videos of going quite sideways with these tires and it happens very quickly. With the super sports, I had plenty of audible feedback to help me sense how much grip I had and how much more I could push them. So the day was getting hotter and I was running faster times with worse tires and bigger/heavier wheels. Lets just say I'll be putting AD08's on my track wheels before my next event. I feel way more confident with street tires and can find the limits better.

Anyways, back to the supercharger. So while on the track, I didn't really get a sense that I was getting robbed of so much power by the heat. I was pulling harder on a bunch of cars than I have in the past without the kit. But my times were worse than before the kit. So I was thinking I must be screwing up pretty bad in some of the corners (at least much worse than my last time out). But when I went home and got the video and data together, I noticed something interesting. Cornering speeds were a bit higher with the Cup tires (though not as fast as they could be), but acceleration on the straights were pretty similar between the videos. So what is the reason for this? Does 5-10 degrees of heat make that much of a difference in performance? Are non-intercooled supercharger kits just useless in 100 degree weather? I know there's not enough data to come to any real conclusion, but I thought it was worth sharing my experience and a video comparison between the 2 days. My car is pulling very strong back home in 80-85 degree weather. I should also note that my car ran great all day. Engine temps were about the same between the 2 days (with and without the supercharger). I do remember my car stalling once yesterday after I started it. It sounded like it was gasping for air for a couple seconds and then died. I started it back up, gave it a bit of gas and then it was fine.

I plan on dynoing my car sometime in the next month and will be at Laguna Seca for 3 days in about a month as well. Air temps will be a lot cooler there and so I really hope to see this kit shine.

Also, I just realized that I can probably pull temperature data from my logged Solo DL files. I'll try to find those and post them sometime. Is there anything else worth trying to pull from my logged ECU data while I'm at it?

After watching the clip a few times over and over I noticed a few things:

1) First clip is about .5 seconds ahead of the 2nd. I should have matched the timer in post. :\
2) I'm using a lot more throttle in the first clip. I'm not sure if that's because of more grip, less power (no blower), or both?

But on the 2 long straight aways towards the end of the video, you'd expect the clip on the right to hit a much higher speed before braking. That's what puzzles me. And it feels like the RPM's are climbing very slowly on the final straight in the video on the right.

Update:

Here's some temperature data from my Solo.

1 Month ago without the supercharger:



- Laps 1-3 were warm up laps
- Didn't get a final cool down lap

Yesterday with the 535 kit:



- Lap 1 was warm up, lap 3 was cool down

Few things to note:

- Temps are in Celsius
- Water temps could be way off because my coolant temperature sensor is going bad. Got a code for that about a week ago and waiting for the dealer to get the replacement part in.
- Probably not relevant, but I should note that I had RPI scoops up until the supercharger install. They do block a little bit of air flow to the cooling fan.

[TurboBimmer]

Hi,

did you notice a decrease in engine performance over a few laps? My guess is your IATs are through the roof on a racetrack without an intercooler. The heatsoaking will cause the ECU to pull timing.

[armyav8tor]

Thanks for this. I was thinking about getting a non-intercooled kit because of that other thread about heat soak at the drag strip but I had a sense that it was too good to be true. Appreciate your honesty.

[pbonsalb]

I would definitely be looking at IAT on the track. What you see in street driving is very much different -- the car has ample time to cool since you simply cannot spend as much time at high rpm in such a short period on the street without getting arrested. Borrow an infrared gun next time and shoot the blower immediately after a track session. Compare that to a street reading. The blower heatsoaks also.

You might try water injection. It is mechanical intercooling. The major car manufacturers tested it years ago and found it effective but never implemented it because they could not rely on the owners to keep the tanks full. The disadvantage over intercooling is that water injection cools the air only under load when the water is flowing while the intercooler cools all the air all the time. Both is best, in my opinion. I recommend the Aquamist kits. Vishnu Tuning did a little testing on a supercharged car and the results were posted in one of the Vishnu threads here. That car may already have been intercooled, though.

[wdd1040]

It looked to me that you may have been a gear too high in a lot of acceleration areas. This, in conjunction with heat soak, decreased any major gains that the supercharger may have provided in those RPM ranges.

[radiantm3]

I'm not looking for more power in this scenario. I just want to make sure my car is running safely. If my ECU is pulling timing to keep the engine safe and I'm running slower than I should be, I'm fine with that. If getting an intercooler is much better for my engine in this weather, then I'll probably go that route. If it's purely a performance benefit, I probably won't do it. I'll probably stay away from running at Thunderhill in 100+ weather in the future not for the sake of my car, but for me as well. It's damn hot.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I would definitely be looking at IAT on the track. What you see in street driving is very much different -- the car has ample time to cool since you simply cannot spend as much time at high rpm in such a short period on the street without getting arrested. Borrow an infrared gun next time and shoot the blower immediately after a track session. Compare that to a street reading. The blower heatsoaks also.

You might try water injection. It is mechanical intercooling. The major car manufacturers tested it years ago and found it effective but never implemented it because they could not rely on the owners to keep the tanks full. The disadvantage over intercooling is that water injection cools the air only under load when the water is flowing while the intercooler cools all the air all the time. Both is best, in my opinion. I recommend the Aquamist kits. Vishnu Tuning did a little testing on a supercharged car and the results were posted in one of the Vishnu threads here. That car may already have been intercooled, though.

Agreed with the IAT's...although people here say getting IAT info is difficult. Also agree with the water/meth. I bet it's worth 50+ HP on a non-supercharged application once IAT's increase dramatically at the track. LostMarine just got a 535 kit and put a water/meth kit and will be doing a number of tests and posting on one of the other forums.

[FormulaMMM]

Looks to me that much of the difference can be attributed to the higher corner exit speeds with the cups. For example, you're 7 mph up with the cups coming onto the front straight (@ 1:39). At peak speed on the straight, you reach 115 with the cups, and 113 with the ss. So that gap was closed to 2 mph with the ESS kit.

All of that said, I think the best look at your straight line acceleration is on the front straight as you shift into fourth. I honestly was expecting more between 103-113 mph in fourth. Could very well be the hot weather.

Top speed for me on my home track is in the 120-130 range down the back straight. On a 50-60 degree day I can nearly clip 130 mph whereas on a 90 degree day I'm just over 120 mph. Same tires, identical final corner exit speed, same brake point.

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by LM3

Looks to me that much of the difference can be attributed to the higher corner exit speeds with the cups. For example, you're 7 mph up with the cups coming onto the front straight (@ 1:39). At peak speed on the straight, you reach 115 with the cups, and 113 with the ss. So that gap was closed to 2 mph with the ESS kit.

All of that said, I think the best look at your straight line acceleration is on the front straight as you shift into fourth. I honestly was expecting more between 103-113 mph in fourth. Could very well be the hot weather.

Top speed for me on my home track is in the 120-130 range down the back straight. On a 50-60 degree day I can nearly clip 130 mph whereas on a 90 degree day I'm just over 120 mph. Same tires, identical final corner exit speed, same brake point.

Yea the front straight is what really got me wondering. I was expecting it to accelerate a bit faster than it did when compared side by side.

[FormulaMMM]

Yep, I would too. Perhaps unrealistic expectations in light of the 100+ degree conditions though.

[CSL_E36]

Nice write up. 100+ @ Thunderhill should be expected. I think you were experiencing heat soak.

I'd like to get some feedback from the intercooled guys to see if it just adds power or also adds consistency. No sense in making 100 more whp if a hot day and session can rob it away. But making 50 more whp, all the time, in 100+ plus heat would be impressive.

I'd like to think a blown intercooled S65 could be the exception to the "everything FI will heat soak" rule.
Maybe not.

Anyone have any links to supercharged M3 track cars?

[pbonsalb]

Even if you do not want any more power, adding an intercooler will be good for the longevity of the motor if you want to track the car. Heat that is severe enough to drop power to stock levels is obviously not good. Contact ESS about an intercooler kit with your existing tune if you want. You may have to change to a slightly smaller pulley to overcome the restriction of the intercooler or it may be that the cooler and denser air leaves you with the same power. ESS would know. You would not be the first M3 owner to add an intercooler just to maintain consistent track performance -- this started years ago with the E36 M3 and continued with the E46 M3.

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

Even if you do not want any more power, adding an intercooler will be good for the longevity of the motor if you want to track the car. Heat that is severe enough to drop power to stock levels is obviously not good. Contact ESS about an intercooler kit with your existing tune if you want. You may have to change to a slightly smaller pulley to overcome the restriction of the intercooler or it may be that the cooler and denser air leaves you with the same power. ESS would know. You would not be the first M3 owner to add an intercooler just to maintain consistent track performance -- this started years ago with the E36 M3 and continued with the E46 M3.

Well this is what I'm trying to figure out.

[zslow6]

Well my experience is similar but with a Honda...
I have an s2k I track that was non intercooled/aftercooled and the conclusion I came to was you lose power due to heat coming out of the corners and while in a corner but make it up in faster straights because of the air flow. my car did almost identical lap times without the blower than with...if not a hair faster. I didn't really want to keep the blower on for longevity purposes even if I got a intercooler but I'm sure it would help.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by radiantm3

Well this is what I'm trying to figure out.

A simple meth kit will restore your power that you feel drivng at home just after your car has warmed up on a cool day. An upgrade to the intercooled VT2 kit is a MUCH more expensive alternative.

With my simple meth kit and Procede tune in my 335i I ran even with PencilGeek in an ESS 535 SC e92 m3's in conditions where IAT's were up there. I'm around 400 wheel HP at ambient temp/sea level and the ESS 535 M3 was 472 wheel HP in ambient temp/sea level, but on the track with high IAT's my HP only drops slightly but the non-intercooled M3 must have dropped much more for our race from 40-145 to end in a tie. My log on the run with PG showed that my IAT's started at 45c and ended just under 40c. On my previous run against another car, my meth didn't flow and logged IAT's starting at 45c and rising to 90c!!!! A huge testiment to meth on FI applications running at sustained boost for long periods.

By the way at my last track event I ran at Big Willow in 90 degree temps and ran 19psi of boost all day long with the meth and oil temps were solid at just under 250. Same as daily driving. On the back straight I was pulling on a heavily modded (580 Hp est) M6 and stayed right with a 667 Hp tuned biturbo CLS AMG.

[CarbonFoot]

Near hundred degree weather will definitely damper your times if you don't run a cooler. Even with some form of a cooler, the higher ambient air temps (near 100) will produce less power than if you were running at 85 degrees.

I started out with 2 smallish IC's on my modded twin turbo S4 and made great power. I eventually went with a single large FMIC and lowered my IAT by 11% and performance obviously improved. Regardless of this, a 10 degree swing in ambient temperature had an equally significant impact on both setups due to the heat as timing retarded. I know they are different cars with different setups but the principles are the same.

So even if you had the water cooled heat exchanger, you would still see a relative drop in performance as the temps climbed. The 5 - 10 degree difference is definitely enough to be felt and measured.

Would it be enough to negate the benefit of having the blower in the first place? On a very hot day, I think it's very possible. Especially when you consider the parasitic nature of superchargers.

All that said - I'm still going to SC my car. Just going to have to lower my expectations when it's hot out, but then again...I'm used to it.

Thanks for sharing!

[CSanto]

So will you move to an intercooled kit?

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by HREM3

So will you move to an intercooled kit?

That's the next step. I seem to have had much better results at Laguna this past weekend though. I was quite a bit faster on the straights than the N/A E9x M3's. But there was a ESS600 M3 that was blowing by me.

[rzm3]

Can you post the before and after data files? Preferably in zip file format.

[Groundpilot]

Originally Posted by radiantm3

That's the next step. I seem to have had much better results at Laguna this past weekend though. I was quite a bit faster on the straights than the N/A E9x M3's. But there was a ESS600 M3 that was blowing by me.

You should upgrade your Supercharger to at least VT2 575 if you can.

[denlin68]

wow i actually didnt know they make superchargers without intercoolers .... because i assumed it should be standard to avoid heatsoaked..... Yeah guys definitely add a intercooler!

I went to a small very very tight road course in 90degree weather... where an AMG C63 , 2012 porsche turbo, porsche boxster and my evolution x were all experiencing heat soaked, or engine cutting power issues in the early afternoon when it was the hottest ....simply because its just too damn hot and humid and the track doesnt have enough speed for the engine to cool down.. so IAT being too hot will effect NA cars and definitely FI cars for sure .... so without a big intercooler at the track you are at a disadvantage .. not so much if you are just daily driving

[bigjae1976]

A 10 degree difference in ambient temps is a very significant different. I don't think comparing the data is relevant. On my s/c'd E46, I notice a significant difference in power and oil temps in 100 degree weather vrs 80 degree and I'm intercooled with w/a injection. I'm sure your car was badly heat soaked. I don't see how your car cannot get quickly heat soaked in 100 degree weather without an intercooler. My E90 can barely withstand a 20 minute DE session and its NA.

Is that good for your car? I'm sure it isn't good over the long term. I know in the past, ESS has highly recommended an intercooler for cars that are run in hotter climates.