E90 Track Impressions (brakes!)

[jml]

Originally Posted by GTM

Just something i noticed,

The M3 GTS due out looks like it uses the 135i 6 pot calipers on front and a 2 pc rotor now. I dont recall seeing any rotor size or specs released though. From the 135s ive had at the shop, looks like there is probably more pad surface area available on the 6 pots too.

That is most definitely not the same caliper as on the 135i.

[consolidated]

Originally Posted by GTM

Just something i noticed,

The M3 GTS due out looks like it uses the 135i 6 pot calipers on front and a 2 pc rotor now. I dont recall seeing any rotor size or specs released though. From the 135s ive had at the shop, looks like there is probably more pad surface area available on the 6 pots too.

Looks more like a Brembo 6 piston GT kit caliper.

[blownturbo]

Originally Posted by HP Autowerks

For that kind of speed, anything less than a Hawk DTC-70 or PFC 01 will simply evaporate after repeated use, even the Hawk and PFC will mounted in oem calipers using oem rotors with no cooling.

The oem brake system simply don't have the heat capacity for extended brake use, nor does it have sufficient cooling.

Speed is more of an issue than weight here...If you are on R-compound tires, you will just go through the stock brakes much much quicker.

I'm no race driver by any means, believe me. I've always used worn racing slicks on track. Michelin SC+, just do not deliver (euro spec). I have no alternative there (no other real chance).

Although, I must tell that I just get 2 or 3 "hot laps", out of my slicks and, that's when brakes just get smoke out of them (Barcelona, for instance).

Bottom line is, for me, the standard m3 is no racing car and, whenever you feel like going hard, it barely stands a chance. Mega-brakes will give you stopping distance and turn-in, but weight is always there. It will ruin your slicks, even with proper alignment. Weight rules here, and slicks are just not developed with the M3 weight considered.

[mastek]

Originally Posted by blownturbo

I'm no race driver by any means, believe me. I've always used worn racing slicks on track. Michelin SC+, just do not deliver (euro spec). I have no alternative there (no other real chance).

Although, I must tell that I just get 2 or 3 "hot laps", out of my slicks and, that's when brakes just get smoke out of them (Barcelona, for instance).

Bottom line is, for me, the standard m3 is no racing car and, whenever you feel like going hard, it barely stands a chance. Mega-brakes will give you stopping distance and turn-in, but weight is always there. It will ruin your slicks, even with proper alignment. Weight rules here, and slicks are just not developed with the M3 weight considered.

Agree 100%
You can have these cars setup with the perfect brakes, perfect suspension -- and once you master the car in that form and begin to push -- you will be scrubbing tires at braking and cornering (due to the weight).

[F360C]

We are also having an interesting discussion about the size of rotor, caliper design, pads and cooling and their effect on braking over at bimmerfest. I know this is for the M Coupe but both EvoSport and Brembo them selves have gotten in the discussion. There is some great info. http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...=415429&page=2

I am really interested in the how your holes in the rotor are filling with with metal. My holes with dust but as soon as I wash the car the holes are empty again. We get our rotors hot too and he is a pic to evidence that..... The following is with Carbotech XP10pads and ATE superblue fluid and there was not even a bit of fade...

[blownturbo]

Originally Posted by mastek

Agree 100%
You can have these cars setup with the perfect brakes, perfect suspension -- and once you master the car in that form and begin to push -- you will be scrubbing tires at braking and cornering (due to the weight).

Hi there Mastek,

I'm glad we observe the same items. Weight just plays down any other gadgets/actions you may take into consideration: alignment, brakes, tyre pressure...

Brakes are not that bad in standard form. Proper brake fluid and pads will get the job done. Weight is the issue here (1,668 kilos in Europe)

I believe the GTS has decreased weight and increased power (along with the brakes), but has never gone carbon-wise. The GTS is a track creature, not a road car.

[GTM]

Originally Posted by jml

That is most definitely not the same caliper as on the 135i.

I havent seen any real specs on the caliper yet, just a guess!

[earlyapex]

Originally Posted by F360C

I am really interested in the how your holes in the rotor are filling with with metal. My holes with dust but as soon as I wash the car the holes are empty again. We get our rotors hot too and he is a pic to evidence that..... The following is with Carbotech XP10pads and ATE superblue fluid and there was not even a bit of fade...

I think it's probably the very high metallic content of the pagid pads.

FYI, I went through carbotech XP12s in the front in less than 2 track days (on PS2 street tires).

Heavy car plus lots of power plus inadaquate cooling = brake problems.

[von_zoom]

FYI, I went through carbotech XP12s in the front in less than 2 track days (on PS2 street tires).

At what track did you do this. Interesting.
Thanks,
vz

[earlyapex]

Originally Posted by von_zoom

At what track did you do this. Interesting.
Thanks,
vz

September Sebring.

[earlyapex]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

Stop braking and start driving...

Thank you for the great advice. I must admit it may take me a while to adust to the new "don't use my brakes to slow down from 145 to 60 at the end of the back straight internet-guru-Forza3 driving style."

[earlyapex]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

Ya just gotta learn to toss it sideways and get on down the track... Oh yeah and stop the early apexing too, that just limits your exit speed.

actually, a relatively earlier late apex is faster on a real racetrack, but that's not something you learn catchin a bitchin drift on xbox, yo!

[earlyapex]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

Can you define an "earlier late apex" for us? Maybe you've been playing video games instead of track driving? That or maybe you don't understand a smilie?

OK fair enough, but you have to expect a bit of kickback when a "new guy" comes into a track forum and starts launching insults about driving experience then claiming people are being too sensitive because of an emoticon.

But it's hard to read written intent too, so I'll just assume we are having a beer and cutting up a bit. Besides, if we'd just been out on the track, you'd know I know what I'm talking about.

By "relatively earlier" late apex, I mean a late apex that is geometrically earlier in the corner than the "typical" line taught at DE's. It's far more dangerous because you push the exit point right to the bumper, but it's much faster (although still a late apex technically). Of course, it also depends on the car (momentum or power), the importance of the following straight, and whether you are defending a position in a race (later apex opens the door for dive bombers).

[SUB-ZERO]

Originally Posted by jml

That is most definitely not the same caliper as on the 135i.

+1

[B.Hallowell]

For what it's worth my best friend did the 2 day M school and at the end of the day the M3's (e92's) needed new rotors because of various failings, most warped. I understand warping occurs when you stay on them stopped and they're hot but the M5's, M6's and M Coupes did not have this issue. I haven't been on a track yet (will be doing DE's this spring in my area) so I don't know if this helps in anyway but I knew the info so I figured I share. Debate amongst yourselves.

[GTAStradale]

Interesting to read what you are saying guys. I went to Monza recently and after three laps the fun was over. The whole front end was vibrating as if the wheels are going to drop off and second. I was really disappointed. I admit that Monza is heavy on brakes, but still disapponting.

So ok, does anyone know what is a proper compromise on this? I am not a track day fanatic, but i like to do it maybe couple of times a year. Like someone else mentioned, all of us have different opinions on this.

I need a car for everyday use, first of all. Track days are enjoyable, but i dont need to break lap records, i just need some fun. Currently that fun is limited to 3 laps and I want to put some effort in extending that! Couple of questions:

1) yellow pagid - can it be used every day or is it mosly for track application?

2) are there any pads that can work reasonably, or is BBK the only solution?

[lucid]

Track (high temperature) pads are best suited for track driving, and stock pads are not for track driving (as the manual states). That said, RS19 is actually not a bad pad to drive with on the street if you don't mind the noise. Modulation at cold temperature is not necessarily a game stopper with them--I thought it was fine. I tooled around with them for several weeks on the street because I got lazy. A more aggresive pad would be more binary. My 2 cents.

[STALKER]

Originally Posted by GTAStradale

Interesting to read what you are saying guys. I went to Monza recently and after three laps the fun was over. The whole front end was vibrating as if the wheels are going to drop off and second. I was really disappointed. I admit that Monza is heavy on brakes, but still disapponting.

So ok, does anyone know what is a proper compromise on this? I am not a track day fanatic, but i like to do it maybe couple of times a year. Like someone else mentioned, all of us have different opinions on this.

I need a car for everyday use, first of all. Track days are enjoyable, but i dont need to break lap records, i just need some fun. Currently that fun is limited to 3 laps and I want to put some effort in extending that! Couple of questions:

1) yellow pagid - can it be used every day or is it mosly for track application?

2) are there any pads that can work reasonably, or is BBK the only solution?

Try Ferodo DS2500.
Best dual purpose pad IMO. They are not going to be as good as a track pad, but much much better then the stock pads.

[knifegun]

I use Pagids for my E90. I switch them out for the track as they are way too noisy for normal use. But on the track, I have no fade and no brake issues.

[von_zoom]

I use Pagids for my E90.

May I ask which Pagid pad, and what your longevity experience with them is.
Thanks, vz

[knifegun]

Originally Posted by von_zoom

May I ask which Pagid pad, and what your longevity experience with them is.
Thanks, vz

I got Pagid yellow (8053 for fronts / 8021 for rears). I got them from http://rennstore.com/.

[drivendriver]

Originally Posted by von_zoom

Wow, the reports above are not very encouraging. I plan on two days at VIR next week, stock everything, but only tracking the E92 two sessions each day. I had planned to push it really hard on two of those track periods. Now, looking at the brake issue, I am not sure about two agressive sessions. Perhaps only one, then inspection. Thanks for the input. I will report my experience after this week end.
vz

I did 2 days at Summit Point and 2 days at VIR (3 or 4 20-minute sessions each day) with almost new stock brake pads.

I wasn't holding back. My top speed at the end of the back straight at VIR was over 140 (speedo).

But, after that, the front pads were completely gone.

I will be at VIR next week.