CDV; 1st to 2nd is a problem

Dackelone · 07-18-2011, 04:49 PM

OP - two things you might try are:

1). Bleed the clutch slave cylinder. Maybe you have some air trapped in there when the car was built by humans.

2). Have the trans fluid level checked. Maybe your dealer did not put enough trans fluid in at the 1,200 mile service. ? (maybe they can change it again for you.) Also... check to make sure the correct BMW fluid was used. I think it should be MTF-LT-3 ? IF that all checks out... you might try switching to RedLine's D4 ATF, it has been known to be smoother on shifting, esp cold shifts. BG's Synchro Shift is also a good product - but I have not used it in a BMW before.

Your car is still new so I would say have your dealer try to fix it before you start putting in different non BMW fluids. Maybe they will bleed your clutch for you? I just thought I would give you some suggestions - other than tell you you don't know how to shift gears - when cearly you do!

IPvFletch · 07-18-2011, 05:32 PM

FWIW, I'm new to BMW M3s and I just test drove a 6MT today. 2nd was very hard to get into. You really have to "pause" and get in there before dropping the clutch (or else it grinds). It was quite annoying. No other gear had this problem and I tried them all numerous times. I'm wondering if they made it like this so you don't accidentally shift into 2nd when you're at redline trying to find 4th... ??

rye m3 · 07-18-2011, 05:37 PM

I love the people that chime in that the 1-2 shift is user error. Those people obviously don't own a 6 speed M3. The tranny is crap. 1-2 is a big disappointment for me coming from a 997. Even double clutching from 3-2 grinds half the time. Anyway, I just had the 1200 mile oil change and it didn't improve much. I will agree that it improves when:
car is warmed up
shifting at 4k or more
delaying the 1-2 shift a couple of fractions of a second

I've learned this just isn't a Porsche. I will say that my E36 M3 shifted MUCH better. It's just the way it is. All said, the DCT doesn't float my boat because I'm still hooked on rev match downshifting and being able to rev my engine while stopped at a light. If I tracked, I'd probably go for a DCT, but on the street the MT is way more entertaining.

Singletrack · 07-18-2011, 05:39 PM

Normal. Gets much better as it breaks in.

Seattle S65B40 · 07-18-2011, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rye m3

I love the people that chime in that the 1-2 shift is user error. Those people obviously don't own a 6 speed M3. The tranny is crap. 1-2 is a big disappointment for me coming from a 997. Even double clutching from 3-2 grinds half the time. Anyway, I just had the 1200 mile oil change and it didn't improve much. I will agree that it improves when:
car is warmed up
shifting at 4k or more
delaying the 1-2 shift a couple of fractions of a second

I've learned this just isn't a Porsche. I will say that my E36 M3 shifted MUCH better. It's just the way it is. All said, the DCT doesn't float my boat because I'm still hooked on rev match downshifting and being able to rev my engine while stopped at a light. If I tracked, I'd probably go for a DCT, but on the street the MT is way more entertaining.

Couldn't have summed it up any better myself. The 1 -> 2 Grind is a reality on this car even in the absence of driver error. I have an appointment to have my transmission inspected later this month. I will report back if the dealer is willing to replace it or do anything about it.

IPvFletch · 07-18-2011, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singletrack

Normal. Gets much better as it breaks in.

See my comments above. This is after 17K miles (it's an 08 slightly used)... It didn't feel BAD it just felt SNUG - VERY SNUG. Almost so snug that I'd rather get the DCT/SMG. Then again, maybe I wouldn't!

Singletrack · 07-18-2011, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IPvFletch

See my comments above. This is after 17K miles (it's an 08 slightly used)... It didn't feel BAD it just felt SNUG - VERY SNUG. Almost so snug that I'd rather get the DCT/SMG. Then again, maybe I wouldn't!

Might want to make sure the tranny fluid was actually changed at 1200mi. Dealers are famous for not doing it and it will definitely affect the fluidity of the shifts eventually.

If the grind is audible, there is something wrong with the tranny (maybe too little fluid), or you are just rushing it IMO. If the grind is just a feeling in your hand, which would seem consistent with the snug comment, then that is what should loosen up with time. 17k is quite a bit though, so maybe the last guy didn't push it enough, or as mentioned, the fluid wasn't changed.

rye m3 · 07-18-2011, 06:46 PM

Mine's only got 1200 miles, so I'm hoping it will improve. I'll tell you one thing. Go to a Porsche dealer and test drive a used 997. Rev to 4k in 1st gear and pull the lever back as quickly as you can into 2nd. Smooth as butter and the revs magically match if you release the clutch quickly. I'm getting used to the M3 already, but it doesn't have a Porsche tranny. I really love my car and won't be selling it anytime soon. I still wish it had a P car tranny though!

IPvFletch · 07-18-2011, 07:05 PM

Good info, thanks Singletrack. It only ground when I let the clutch back out and it wasn't fully seated into 2nd. Otherwise it felt like a collar when I pushed it into 2nd all the way. Like it had some resistance but not too much. The other gears have ZERO resistance though so I thought this was odd, esp. when I had just read this topic this morning while cruising these forums..

If I end up buying it, I'm going to make sure the fluid gets changed out and comment to the dealer about it. Actually the one I'm buying (MAYBE) is a different one, so I will test drive that one too, it was just getting CPO'd and I couldn't drive it today.

ruff1017 · 07-18-2011, 07:32 PM

The stock clutch on new M3 is too light & has a non-linear feel. That is caused by (evil) clutch pedal spring. When I shift very fast I notice that the clutch is a little slow to come back up, and does not come back up as fast as my foot does, that is the reason why we 6 speed people feeling notch and cannot shift fast or smoothly.
If you are thinking about removing the helper spring on the clutch pedal please click here for details.
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195777
You can always put it back on in case if you don't like it. I did on mine and made big difference on every gear shifts.
I do not understand why BMW put this (evil) device but this clutch pedal spring is terrible idea for either non experienced or experienced manual drivers.

just my 2 cents

Happy Motoring.

bishop4142 · 07-18-2011, 10:07 PM

I just scheduled my 1200 mile service. I will make sure that all the fluids are changed and I will ask that the trans be checked for any problems outside of BMW spec's. I will let everyone know what the outcome is. For those who insist that it is driver error, I sat for a few minutes shifting from 1st to 2nd clutch to the floor and it is notchy; 2nd to 3rd smooth... so how can that be driver error?

Singletrack · 07-18-2011, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bishop4142

I just scheduled my 1200 mile service. I will make sure that all the fluids are changed and I will ask that the trans be checked for any problems outside of BMW spec's. I will let everyone know what the outcome is. For those who insist that it is driver error, I sat for a few minutes shifting from 1st to 2nd clutch to the floor and it is notchy; 2nd to 3rd smooth... so how can that be driver error?

It isn't...I would ignore those comments personally.

chewietobbacca · 07-19-2011, 12:24 AM

It's like this with the E46 M3 too.. 1st to 2nd really sucks unless you shift well above 4k rpm, do a "pause", and so on. Definitely not smooth like a Porsche or Honda, but still way better than others

I've gotten used to it, but it definitely took some time

tom @ eas · 07-19-2011, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dackelone

Has anyone taken their "lock valve" or CDV out of their car and had a look for the (little) jet inside of it? Why is it that "other" M models have used a CDV but not the e9x M3's ???

Dackel

Comparison of CDV orifice and line fitting:

The CDV does not appear to have any restriction.

OC3 · 07-19-2011, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreasyGinzo

People who have problems with 1-2 shift in this car can't drive stick or they are getting ahead of their skills

Wrong.

SenorFunkyPants · 07-19-2011, 03:27 AM

Some of you guys who are having problems with the 1-2 shift should meet up with some who aren't and see if operator error is playing a part....because in reality even if you removed the synco ring completely from second gear you should still be able to make perfect shifts at any revs.

Erie Von Otto · 07-19-2011, 07:17 AM

Just going to post my experience as I am your average DD/no track time guy, but the 1-2 shift was jerky and clumsy initially enough to where I was bummed about my 6mt choice after having only test driven the DCT. Once I got used to the car, I was able to improve the smoothness enough to where my co-workers said I appeared to be more comfortable in a standard again. Then after the initial 1200 service, the car was noticeably smoother yet. This was just my experience and like others have said it is better after warm up, both car and driver.

SenorFunkyPants · 07-19-2011, 07:51 AM

Here is an interesting video showing the internals of an E46 M3 gearbox with a discussion on synco rings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...YAMIjIu3I#t=6s

Gearhead999s · 07-19-2011, 08:31 AM

I have waited a little while before weighing in on this thread.I had a 08 E92 with the 6 speed that I had big issues with 1-2nd shifts which became so bad that the transmission was changed at 42000 kms.The replacement transmission also started to shift poorly after about 5000 kms.Yes it did shift much better at higher rpm but I am not unconvinced that it was not an issue with the clutch dragging when it was hot like in stop & go traffic.I found it very annoying as I have been driving manual transmissions in trucks & cars for over 40 years and have been racing for 35 of those years.
My experience with the Tremac transmissions has been much more positive and I never had these issues in any of my other cars that had much more torque like my Camaro SS & C5Z06.My other M cars over the years certianly never had this issue.
I was disappointed enough in this that I ordered a 2011 E92 with the M-DCT and have been quite impressed by it.There are some minor annoyances on the street but on the track it is stellar!I am quite happy with my decision.

stefan · 07-19-2011, 08:40 AM

This again!? People have been complaining about 1-2 shifts since the E36 days. That's the way BMWs are. People have been complaining about the CDV since they came out. Funny thing is, after owning 4 BMWs, I have never ONCE had a problem with these. That said, I'm not ramming it into second pretending I'm an F1 driver or something. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast, remember?

If there really are problems with the transmission, I think we would have seen far more being swapped out.

serranot · 07-19-2011, 06:50 PM

Folks - the transmission is ok. No better, no worse. If you think it's smooth as butter, you either have never driven another MT (Porsche or Honda) or you got extremely lucky with the build of yours.

Dackelone · 07-19-2011, 07:29 PM

So... no one has tried a different trans fluid? Like RedLine's D4-ATF or BG's Syncroshift ???

07-18-2011, 04:49 PM	#45
Dackelone European Editor 10526 Rep 22,992 Posts Drives: N54 e82 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Bayern, Germany iTrader: (1)	OP - two things you might try are: 1). Bleed the clutch slave cylinder. Maybe you have some air trapped in there when the car was built by humans. 2). Have the trans fluid level checked. Maybe your dealer did not put enough trans fluid in at the 1,200 mile service. ? (maybe they can change it again for you.) Also... check to make sure the correct BMW fluid was used. I think it should be MTF-LT-3 ? IF that all checks out... you might try switching to RedLine's D4 ATF, it has been known to be smoother on shifting, esp cold shifts. BG's Synchro Shift is also a good product - but I have not used it in a BMW before. Your car is still new so I would say have your dealer try to fix it before you start putting in different non BMW fluids. Maybe they will bleed your clutch for you? I just thought I would give you some suggestions - other than tell you you don't know how to shift gears - when cearly you do!
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07-18-2011, 05:32 PM	#46
IPvFletch Enlisted Member 2 Rep 31 Posts Drives: Charger SRT8 Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: ATX iTrader: (0)	FWIW, I'm new to BMW M3s and I just test drove a 6MT today. 2nd was very hard to get into. You really have to "pause" and get in there before dropping the clutch (or else it grinds). It was quite annoying. No other gear had this problem and I tried them all numerous times. I'm wondering if they made it like this so you don't accidentally shift into 2nd when you're at redline trying to find 4th... ??
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07-18-2011, 05:37 PM	#47
rye m3 Lieutenant 33 Rep 489 Posts Drives: 2011.75 E92 M3 Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: New York iTrader: (2)	I love the people that chime in that the 1-2 shift is user error. Those people obviously don't own a 6 speed M3. The tranny is crap. 1-2 is a big disappointment for me coming from a 997. Even double clutching from 3-2 grinds half the time. Anyway, I just had the 1200 mile oil change and it didn't improve much. I will agree that it improves when: car is warmed up shifting at 4k or more delaying the 1-2 shift a couple of fractions of a second I've learned this just isn't a Porsche. I will say that my E36 M3 shifted MUCH better. It's just the way it is. All said, the DCT doesn't float my boat because I'm still hooked on rev match downshifting and being able to rev my engine while stopped at a light. If I tracked, I'd probably go for a DCT, but on the street the MT is way more entertaining. __________________ E92 M3 MR on Red/Black ZCP Sound Carbon 2007 997S - sold 2003 E46 M3 Steel Grey on Red- sold 1997 E36 M3 Arctic Silver on Black- sold
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07-18-2011, 05:39 PM	#48
Singletrack 4th down; 4th quarter? Renegade. 87 Rep 3,850 Posts Drives: 09 SSII E92 M3; 19 FG M5C Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Pittsburgh, PA iTrader: (3)	Normal. Gets much better as it breaks in.
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07-18-2011, 06:46 PM	#52
rye m3 Lieutenant 33 Rep 489 Posts Drives: 2011.75 E92 M3 Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: New York iTrader: (2)	Mine's only got 1200 miles, so I'm hoping it will improve. I'll tell you one thing. Go to a Porsche dealer and test drive a used 997. Rev to 4k in 1st gear and pull the lever back as quickly as you can into 2nd. Smooth as butter and the revs magically match if you release the clutch quickly. I'm getting used to the M3 already, but it doesn't have a Porsche tranny. I really love my car and won't be selling it anytime soon. I still wish it had a P car tranny though! __________________ E92 M3 MR on Red/Black ZCP Sound Carbon 2007 997S - sold 2003 E46 M3 Steel Grey on Red- sold 1997 E36 M3 Arctic Silver on Black- sold
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07-18-2011, 07:05 PM	#53
IPvFletch Enlisted Member 2 Rep 31 Posts Drives: Charger SRT8 Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: ATX iTrader: (0)	Good info, thanks Singletrack. It only ground when I let the clutch back out and it wasn't fully seated into 2nd. Otherwise it felt like a collar when I pushed it into 2nd all the way. Like it had some resistance but not too much. The other gears have ZERO resistance though so I thought this was odd, esp. when I had just read this topic this morning while cruising these forums.. If I end up buying it, I'm going to make sure the fluid gets changed out and comment to the dealer about it. Actually the one I'm buying (MAYBE) is a different one, so I will test drive that one too, it was just getting CPO'd and I couldn't drive it today.
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07-18-2011, 07:32 PM	#54
ruff1017 Private First Class 27 Rep 113 Posts Drives: 09 M3 6speed Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Toronto iTrader: (0)	hope this can help op The stock clutch on new M3 is too light & has a non-linear feel. That is caused by (evil) clutch pedal spring. When I shift very fast I notice that the clutch is a little slow to come back up, and does not come back up as fast as my foot does, that is the reason why we 6 speed people feeling notch and cannot shift fast or smoothly. If you are thinking about removing the helper spring on the clutch pedal please click here for details. http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195777 You can always put it back on in case if you don't like it. I did on mine and made big difference on every gear shifts. I do not understand why BMW put this (evil) device but this clutch pedal spring is terrible idea for either non experienced or experienced manual drivers. just my 2 cents Happy Motoring.
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07-18-2011, 10:07 PM	#55
bishop4142 Private First Class 61 Rep 152 Posts Drives: 2024 M4 Convertible Join Date: May 2009 Location: FL iTrader: (0) Garage List [0.00]	I just scheduled my 1200 mile service. I will make sure that all the fluids are changed and I will ask that the trans be checked for any problems outside of BMW spec's. I will let everyone know what the outcome is. For those who insist that it is driver error, I sat for a few minutes shifting from 1st to 2nd clutch to the floor and it is notchy; 2nd to 3rd smooth... so how can that be driver error?
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07-19-2011, 12:24 AM	#57
chewietobbacca New Member 4 Rep 26 Posts Drives: E46 M3 Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Los Angeles, CA iTrader: (0)	It's like this with the E46 M3 too.. 1st to 2nd really sucks unless you shift well above 4k rpm, do a "pause", and so on. Definitely not smooth like a Porsche or Honda, but still way better than others I've gotten used to it, but it definitely took some time
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07-19-2011, 03:27 AM	#60
SenorFunkyPants Brigadier General 2511 Rep 4,381 Posts Drives: 2019 M5 Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: UK iTrader: (0)	Some of you guys who are having problems with the 1-2 shift should meet up with some who aren't and see if operator error is playing a part....because in reality even if you removed the synco ring completely from second gear you should still be able to make perfect shifts at any revs.
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07-19-2011, 07:17 AM	#61
Erie Von Otto DT///M 149 Rep 1,370 Posts Drives: 2014 F31 Touring Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Rocket City, AL iTrader: (3) Garage List 2014 BMW Touring [0.00]	Just going to post my experience as I am your average DD/no track time guy, but the 1-2 shift was jerky and clumsy initially enough to where I was bummed about my 6mt choice after having only test driven the DCT. Once I got used to the car, I was able to improve the smoothness enough to where my co-workers said I appeared to be more comfortable in a standard again. Then after the initial 1200 service, the car was noticeably smoother yet. This was just my experience and like others have said it is better after warm up, both car and driver. __________________ "With great power comes great responsibility." -El-Superbeasto
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07-19-2011, 07:51 AM	#62
SenorFunkyPants Brigadier General 2511 Rep 4,381 Posts Drives: 2019 M5 Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: UK iTrader: (0)	Here is an interesting video showing the internals of an E46 M3 gearbox with a discussion on synco rings. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...YAMIjIu3I#t=6s
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07-19-2011, 08:31 AM	#63
Gearhead999s Major General 814 Rep 7,888 Posts Drives: RR Velar R=Dynamic M2C R1200GS Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Toronto iTrader: (0)	I have waited a little while before weighing in on this thread.I had a 08 E92 with the 6 speed that I had big issues with 1-2nd shifts which became so bad that the transmission was changed at 42000 kms.The replacement transmission also started to shift poorly after about 5000 kms.Yes it did shift much better at higher rpm but I am not unconvinced that it was not an issue with the clutch dragging when it was hot like in stop & go traffic.I found it very annoying as I have been driving manual transmissions in trucks & cars for over 40 years and have been racing for 35 of those years. My experience with the Tremac transmissions has been much more positive and I never had these issues in any of my other cars that had much more torque like my Camaro SS & C5Z06.My other M cars over the years certianly never had this issue. I was disappointed enough in this that I ordered a 2011 E92 with the M-DCT and have been quite impressed by it.There are some minor annoyances on the street but on the track it is stellar!I am quite happy with my decision.
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07-19-2011, 08:40 AM	#64
stefan Brigadier General 2350 Rep 4,253 Posts Drives: M2 Comp Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: North iTrader: (2)	This again!? People have been complaining about 1-2 shifts since the E36 days. That's the way BMWs are. People have been complaining about the CDV since they came out. Funny thing is, after owning 4 BMWs, I have never ONCE had a problem with these. That said, I'm not ramming it into second pretending I'm an F1 driver or something. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast, remember? If there really are problems with the transmission, I think we would have seen far more being swapped out. __________________ ///M Power
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07-19-2011, 06:50 PM	#65
serranot Lieutenant 324 Rep 488 Posts Drives: 2011 E90 M3 6MT Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Middletown, MD iTrader: (0) Garage List 2011 BMW E90 M3 [10.00]	Folks - the transmission is ok. No better, no worse. If you think it's smooth as butter, you either have never driven another MT (Porsche or Honda) or you got extremely lucky with the build of yours.
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07-19-2011, 07:29 PM	#66
Dackelone European Editor 10526 Rep 22,992 Posts Drives: N54 e82 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Bayern, Germany iTrader: (1)	So... no one has tried a different trans fluid? Like RedLine's D4-ATF or BG's Syncroshift ???
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