RPi Ram Intake Scoops with Dyno. [14 whp]

[tightie]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Well, guess I have to stop by RPI again soon

335 scoops for sale! I need to go get these by November 1st... I called out some MB's to drag race at california speedway on the 1st.

hey. i didnt know you were local.
thursday night meet. be there or be square.
http://www.m3post.com/forums/calenda...0-16&e=731&c=1

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by tightie

hey. i didnt know you were local.
thursday night meet. be there or be square.
http://www.m3post.com/forums/calenda...0-16&e=731&c=1

Can't... car is at Evosport getting sexified.

[tightie]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Can't... car is Evosport getting sexified.

come on.. your pullies can wait..

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by PencilGeek

In the world I live in, a cylilnder is round, and a piece of rectangular tubing isn't. This air filter is more like a piece of rectangular tubing than a cylinder. All of the surface areas are flat. There is absolutely nothing "round" or "cylindrical" about the filter sitting right here on my office floor. And since I'd love to get my $100 back on the bet I lost to TLud, would you like to bet me $100 that my OEM M3 filter is not cylindrical -- as defined by any mathematically accepted definition?

I'm actually very surprised that you keep responding as if I'm disagreeing with you, when I've never even doubted that this product works, nor said anything negative about it. You keep talking down to me as are the teacher, and I am the pupil (though I'm pretty sure I have MUCH more experience than you in these matters)...and you keep trying to prove your point by saying things that are either false ("cylinders are square") or completely unscientific ("butt dyno" / "in the m5/m6 world").

Most people, including RPI, refer to this style of filter in the M3 as a cone vs. the flat used in the 335 and M5. The reason being a cone has a hollow area inside, like the M3 filter. I said cylindrical (not cylinder, you miss that?), which a cone shape can be, but if you want to play semantics go right ahead.

I never said you ever said anything negative. So now that you know what I said what would you like to say?

I'm not sure where you get off thinking you have more experience in these matters, have we met before? Have we had some in depth discussion regarding my past and yours that I am not aware of? Where has this experience shown through? Not when I read your dyno results and all the variables you include making your data basically useless. I think you need to do a bit learning and not come to premature, negative conclusions regarding tone in posts.

Now you say the M3 filter is rectangular (which I can see how it can be interpreted that way) and before you referred to it as flat, uh, what? Butt dyno refers to my impressions of the mod, did not claim it was scientific. What IS scientific, is the dozen threads on the subject on M5board you might want to take a look at. A lot of scientific data a high end engineer like yourself I am sure will just eat up.

I'm glad you are learning about the M3 and posting your results and all, as I can tell you are an enthusiast. No offense, but you don't know half as much about these cars as you think you do and I am not going to go off looking like some douche telling you I have more experience than you. Weren't you the one that made the simple mistake on m3forum of stating the M3 compression ratio as being 12.5:1? I mean, where is your experience if you can't even get the basics right?

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by tightie

come on.. your pullies can wait..

Springs too Maybe another thing or two... (that rhymes! )

[SlammedR8]

My question on page 2 was not answered... this is a v2 of the air scoops from RPi? is that correct?

[96OCTNE]

[SlammedR8]

Originally Posted by 96OCTNE

+1

[RPIpower]

Originally Posted by JEllis

I dont understand how the dyno is simulating a ram air effect... this is usually hard to replicate with just a fan....

Jason

We use a Patterson 30" fan that moves 12k cfm of air. Manufacturer specs state 70mph winds are 8ft from the front of the car. Some people say its not as good as real world. We say its better to under rate our claims than over rate them.

Originally Posted by Kadarin

I'm wondering about the ram effect, given that the airbox has three separate entrypoints. Air forced into the box because of the scoops does not necessarily get forced through the filter into the engine.

I was skeptical about this when I found out that the stock filter is a cone/cyl (non panel) type and not a flat panel. I had a chance to look at how the stock intake worked and the flow dynamics. There is two openings in the front behind the kidney grills, then one on the driver side rear of the hood. If you look at how its designed you will see how the air circulates in the stock air box. The faster you go, the more vacuum the air passing the hood hole will create. This allows circulation of air through the air box. With the ram air, you will move a lot more air into the air box. I wasnt sure how this would translate into power until we dynod our v4 ram air.

[mPlasticDesign]

Can't wait to get my scoops installed this weekend. I installed this scoop on my Mcoupe and I was so skeptical hearing the MPG improvements from other members on that car. I have a weekly run I have to make for work(225miles) and I tested the scoop.... my result were an improvement of mpg(+2-3). I will be interested to see how this works for the M3.

[tightie]

Originally Posted by slammedm3

My question on page 2 was not answered... this is a v2 of the air scoops from RPi? is that correct?

yes

[ace996]

Originally Posted by RPIpower

I was skeptical about this when I found out that the stock filter is a cone/cyl (non panel) type and not a flat panel. I had a chance to look at how the stock intake worked and the flow dynamics. There is two openings in the front behind the kidney grills, then one on the driver side rear of the hood. If you look at how its designed you will see how the air circulates in the stock air box. The faster you go, the more vacuum the air passing the hood hole will create. This allows circulation of air through the air box. With the ram air, you will move a lot more air into the air box. I wasnt sure how this would translate into power until we dynod our v4 ram air.

So it sounds as if the scoops ram more air in than the escaping air out the hood? I have been sceptical about these "scoops" because of the "leak" of pressure allowed out the hood-vent...how can pressure be increased enough to show any type of gain when there is a major airbox leak out the hood vent? I am still sceptical, as any gains over 10hp means there is a major resistance point of the stock box and these scoops may just allow less 'vacuum' at WOT, reducing pumping losses. But there's still that "hole in the bucket" or "hole in the balloon" in the hood.


I would think, as I'm sure many do, that plugging that top vent will allow pressure to be held more consistantly in the airbox when speeds increase. This is why the M5/M6s benefit from these scoops...it is a true increase of the 'ram-air' effect. On the M3, with that vent out the hood, it is not the same. The unknown variable is just when is that vent-source needed...at low speeds and high-rpm/load or any time at high rpm/load?

I've banged around the idea of building a "flapper" valve that would allow pressure to build without losing air out the hood when positive pressure is present in the box, and open when there is a vacuum present in the box..such as at low speeds and high load/rpm. I would think the gains of your scoops would be increased should such a 'valve' be employed, and the benefit of 'true ram-air' would be realized.

Have you considered even blocking-off the hood vent and doing a dyno or two with/without the hood vents? That would be very telling and may lead to a significant benefit to our induction modifications.

Thanks,
TomK

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by PencilGeek

You might want to look at your first description of the filter...you called it a "cone" -- now you're calling it "cylindrical." An argument can be made for "cylindrical" but describing it as a cone cannot be defended.

This is my last response in this thread, because frankly, it's not worth debating somebody who can't even get the basic RELEVANT information correct...and you're ruining this for RPI. Yes, i did accidentally say 12.5:1 in a thread. Funny that you picked up on that, because the 12.5:1 number had no RELEVANCE to the discussion, and so misquoting it didn't degrade or invalidate the point being made.

"I was skeptical about this when I found out that the stock filter is a cone/cyl"

"Most people, including RPI, refer to this style of filter in the M3 as a cone vs. the flat used in the 335 and M5"

Kindly remove your foot from your mouth, it is stupid for you to even be hanging on to the shape. The M3 filter is shaped differently from the M5 and 335, that is what people should take from the thread. The ram air effect is said to be better with a flat filter but there is a benefit to the scoops on the M3 even with the CONE OR CYLINDER (whatever shape you would like to call it, but not flat)

[Ronin13]

Quick question... were both the .003 before and .008 after (with scoops) dyno runs produced with the fan blowing and at the same rate?

[McLuVan]

Originally Posted by tightie

longtran has the d1scoops.. he copied rpi's first scoop that doesnt give it as much horsepower.. every angle can make you loose power or gain it..

me? i dont care to prove my self.. i'll let the product speak for itself when its done.. i stand by rpi and eloy.. im pretty sure many many people will too..

I know he has the d1scoops
but people here are challenging that such a design/concept would add power

[tightie]

Originally Posted by Ronin13

Quick question... were both the .003 before and .008 after (with scoops) dyno runs produced with the fan blowing and at the same rate?

yeah, fan/car did not move at all.

[SS32]

I bought a set of the "defective" scoops for $75. I don't know if it's in my head, or there was an actual gain, but the car feels like it pulls harder in 6th than it used to, 3rd feels like it pulls harder, too. It was my understanding that they work by pulling colder air into the box, not by forcing more in. Although, there is more air if it's colder air. Instead of drawing air that has moved up the radiator, they take air in from the front of the car, where it's cooler. I thought I remembered reading somewhere that there was ~30 degree difference.

[SlammedR8]

Originally Posted by cowmoo32

I bought a set of the "defective" scoops for $75. I don't know if it's in my head, or there was an actual gain, but the car feels like it pulls harder in 6th than it used to, 3rd feels like it pulls harder, too. It was my understanding that they work by pulling colder air into the box, not by forcing more in. Although, there is more air if it's colder air. Instead of drawing air that has moved up the radiator, they take air in from the front of the car, where it's cooler. I thought I remembered reading somewhere that there was ~30 degree difference.

I also bought the "defective" scoops for $75, and I also say Im not sure if its in my head but the more I drive it, the more I feel it. and i mean I really feel it pull harder in 6th mostly, but also in 3rd and 4th gear. ( I also have Rogue Engineering Pulleys). Great mod! Especially for $75!

[Reincarnated]

Read through the fighting

Any updates/pics/availability on this?

[ace996]

An easy way to "test" this improvement is with timed roll-ons...with a GPS logger. I use a PerformanceBox for the track and it can easily time a car for a 60-100, or whatever range, pull.
----I don't sell these---- http://www.vboxusa.com/performancedr...ormancebox.php

This would also skip over the doubts some have over a dyno-fan making enough pressure or any claimed performance from a manufacturer/vendor of such products.
Then we would be able to see just what kind of difference is realized on a "real road-based" test.

So who's in the LongIsland area that wants to do some runs with my datalogger so we can put up some numbers? 5 runs without the scoops, 5 runs with the scoops...same day (as close as possible to eliminate atmospheric effects) and then we compare the numbers and post them up...I can post the graphs and spreadsheets, too. To keep the shifting variable out of the equation, we can do a 3rd gear pull from 3Krpm to 8300rpm, or do other gears/rpm-ranges.
I even have a video/mount that can record the whole process.

That would eliminate any "labratory-tested" doubts. If they show any real gain then I'll even buy a set.

So who's game?

[armyav8tor]

I'll save that $129 and treat my wife to a nice dinner. The M3's stock intake doesn't need scoops, there are 3 different places for the intake to draw air from. All this thing does is add weight and block airflow to the radiator. Of course this is just my opinion, I have nothing to back it up but maybe some logic. The dyno charts are pretty hard to believe. 14whp gain with scoops?

[Reincarnated]

Originally Posted by PencilGeek

Come on, for $129, who cares about the doubters? Worst case, it was a wasted $129. .

I would venture a guess that is part of the mindset the company hopes potential customers would have.