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      02-16-2015, 10:24 AM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
I would think a much stiffer front sway bar is the way to go. I recall that Hotchkis had some prototype F2x bars a board member had on his/her car a number of months ago, so contact Hotchkis perhaps. I don't know of any currently available F2x sway bars available otherwise.

You'll get the needed relief with the larger bar -- less front body roll hence reduced camber loss, more inside rear tire grip (which will be very necessary without an LSD), etc. Does the F22 have camber pins? I'm guessing no if it's similar to the F3x/F8x platforms but hopefully that is a wrong guess.

Ten years back I was shocked at how adding a large front sway bar to my E46 ZHP in D-stock transformed the car in autox. Understeer decreased in almost all situations for reasons sited above, and it greatly improved inside rear wheel grip coming off elements. Front tire outside edge wear went down substantially also.

The problem with the M235 will be wheel widths and tire sizing. With 7.5 and 8.0 widths, it will be giving up a good bit compared to the E9x M3s. On the M3 I have been running 275/35-18 all around on stock width wheels (8.5, 9.5), and ZCP cars can run 9.0/10.0 wheels. Some are also running 295/35 rears. Wheel/tire size will hinder the F2x in front grip a good bit and also especially in rear longitudinal grip (hard to believe that BMW uses 8.0/245 rears on the M235i while the ZSP E9x 330i and E46 ZHP 330i came with 8.5/255 rears with dramatically less torque output engines).

Squeezing a 255/35 street tire onto the 7.5" front wheel likely will not work out well (but if it can fit and it was my car, I'd at least try it), so being able to run a square tire setup will be problematic on the F2x. You can probably get away with a 235/40 up front at most. Out back you're probably going to have to slightly pinch a 255/35 on the 8" wheels since there is little (none?) availability of the hottest street autox tires in 245/35 sizing, and you'll likely want the most rear grip you can get trying accelerate off elements, especially with no LSD.

Hopefully the above is useful...just random thoughts off the top of my head. The other guys in this thread have more setup experience than I do, hence they should have some thoughts too. Rich?

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Chuck
Thank you for the response. I'll try an event or two stock, then try the Hotchkis, which I think I saw someone saying they had a prototype bar.

And you're right, I didn't even check wheel widths until last night when I started looking for tires. This was not a planned purchase and I didn't look into all the variables.

I don't see it fitting into an ST class yet per the rulebook but maybe stx?!
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      02-16-2015, 01:57 PM   #156
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i'd bet they won't let the 235i go to STX and will be in STU since you will be able to overcome much of the issues noted above with wider wheels, coils and camber plates but good luck in that mix.
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      02-17-2015, 08:56 AM   #157
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I'm pretty sure you have to request the M235i to be class in a "ST" class thru the SEB, they don't automatically do it. I did the same thing back then when I had a 370Z, tried to argue for STU but they put it in STR. You can try to argue for it to be in STX but like Z3papa says, I'm almost sure it will be STU.
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      02-17-2015, 02:56 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by z3papa View Post
i'd bet they won't let the 235i go to STX and will be in STU since you will be able to overcome much of the issues noted above with wider wheels, coils and camber plates but good luck in that mix.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Gumby View Post
I'm pretty sure you have to request the M235i to be class in a "ST" class thru the SEB, they don't automatically do it. I did the same thing back then when I had a 370Z, tried to argue for STU but they put it in STR. You can try to argue for it to be in STX but like Z3papa says, I'm almost sure it will be STU.
STU is fine. Since I'll most likely never go to the national level, I'm fine playing with the locals and being in an underdog car only improves the driver
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      02-17-2015, 07:54 PM   #159
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The differential is a port-installed option now I believe, and as such is legal. That would be something to verify and look into as it will significantly help everything.

I thought the M235i had 7.5/8.5 wheels, but a quick google search says I'm mistaken. I wonder why they went so tiny - even the 135i had 7.5/8.5.
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      02-17-2015, 07:58 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by z3papa View Post
i'd bet they won't let the 235i go to STX and will be in STU since you will be able to overcome much of the issues noted above with wider wheels, coils and camber plates but good luck in that mix.
I agree, however I bet the 228i goes to STX. That's what I'd pick for the class, if I wanted a non-twin. The door has already been opened by putting the 2015+ WRX there.
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      02-17-2015, 08:03 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexpelagi View Post
The differential is a port-installed option now I believe, and as such is legal. That would be something to verify and look into as it will significantly help everything.

I thought the M235i had 7.5/8.5 wheels, but a quick google search says I'm mistaken. I wonder why they went so tiny - even the 135i had 7.5/8.5.
I don't recall anywhere saying it would be anything but dealer installed. It is not a configurable order item for the car either. I would continue to assume it is not legal in stock class until proven otherwise.
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      02-17-2015, 08:13 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexpelagi View Post
I agree, however I bet the 228i goes to STX. That's what I'd pick for the class, if I wanted a non-twin. The door has already been opened by putting the 2015+ WRX there.
No argument there since the 128i is already in STX.
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      02-17-2015, 08:48 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexpelagi View Post
I agree, however I bet the 228i goes to STX. That's what I'd pick for the class, if I wanted a non-twin. The door has already been opened by putting the 2015+ WRX there.
Eh, the 228i suffers the same wheel clearance issues as my car. And no...it's not because of stanced bro.

The car is also a tank.
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      02-17-2015, 09:10 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
I don't recall anywhere saying it would be anything but dealer installed. It is not a configurable order item for the car either. I would continue to assume it is not legal in stock class until proven otherwise.


It probably needs to be clarified, as there was a tech bulletin in September which said it was dealer-installed and thus illegal. However, I think at that time it wasn't listed on the build screen.

Edit: If you mouse-over the differential it talks about installers and such, so I actually don't think this clarifies anything.
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      02-17-2015, 10:04 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexpelagi View Post
It probably needs to be clarified, as there was a tech bulletin in September which said it was dealer-installed and thus illegal. However, I think at that time it wasn't listed on the build screen.

Edit: If you mouse-over the differential it talks about installers and such, so I actually don't think this clarifies anything.
I wondered about the LSD option and if it would be legal to add since you can check it off when ordering.
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      02-17-2015, 10:24 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3peat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexpelagi View Post
It probably needs to be clarified, as there was a tech bulletin in September which said it was dealer-installed and thus illegal. However, I think at that time it wasn't listed on the build screen.

Edit: If you mouse-over the differential it talks about installers and such, so I actually don't think this clarifies anything.
I wondered about the LSD option and if it would be legal to add since you can check it off when ordering.
The diff is now port installed. My dads M235i was done port.

You just need the proper documentation until a FasTrack comes out
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      02-18-2015, 07:48 AM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kgolf31 View Post
The diff is now port installed. My dads M235i was done port.

You just need the proper documentation until a FasTrack comes out
Someone with an interest should file with the SEB for a ruling then since as of now it is not legal. Not sure how protests go at National level events, but if something has been specifically ruled illegal in a class, can you now simply show that it complies with the rules and be easily cleared even though the SEB ruling is still out there? Makes sense to get it cleared to go with a ruling update if indeed it meets the letter of the rules now!
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      02-18-2015, 09:51 AM   #168
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I personally would not show up at an event with a diff previously ruled ineligible upon the assumption that if a protest were thrown, I could overcome it. Assuming you would not have to do the "tear down" and just admit it was an M LSD, you'd still have spent the time and $$ registering, traveling, staying at hotels, and then running, all of which could be dashed by their disagreement on sight whereas you could get the clarification ahead of time, and avoid much of this uncertainty. For those who have events 1-2 hours away, this is not as much of an inconvenience. For most of my Nat'l events last year, it was 5-6 hours one way dragging a trailer.
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      02-18-2015, 10:45 AM   #169
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Should be pretty easy to document the M235i's LSD as port-installed if it is indeed port-installed. Documents should come with the car. Get protested, show documents, look at rulebook, protest goes away. Clarification by fastrack would help but the SEB can't issue a pronouncement on every M235i because some will be retrofits so what would be the point? If it's port-installed, it's legal, if it's a retrofit, it's not. There are lots of good reasons why this has to be the line in the sand, it's been this way for a long time. Documenting that is on the owner of the car. The SEB basically read the rule back to whoever wrote the letter, they didn't change the rule with that tech bulletin.

That said, I think the M235i is DOA in FS with no LSD or 50 LSD's. Not enough front wheel and not enough front wheel well, but the real killer would be no camber adjustment allowance that I know of? The E46 M3 is probably the worst front camber in FS and it can get a little over a degree, and has an 8" front wheel and weighs less than M235i, and the new Mustang and old Mustang both got ~-2 front, with a 9" front wheel and room for a big tire. I'm never one to discourage somebody from autocrossing an oddball car, but if the M235i can't get more than 1 degree of front camber, I wouldn't bother, it will just piss you off, just go to ST with it

Setup wise, yes, big front bar is the biggest bang for your buck. Does F8x front bar work on F22?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chono View Post
I would like to hear more about this setup!
I'd especially like to know where you put the remotes and how you routed the lines. Along with any other tips you may have.
I have a thread in the suspension forum, and there's a thread in this forum (search "Ultimate SCCA A-stock build" for much reading

Short answer, the front reservoirs are routed to, and rest in, the windshield drains and secured with fuel cell foam, this allows easy access without subjecting them to the heat of the engine bay, and the foam allows water to flow past without clogging the drains. The fronts have quick-disconnects so I just routed the lines along the harness runs

Rears are just zip-tied to the carpet behind the wheel wells inside the trunk, routed the hoses through the vent panels behind each wheel well

I think the MCS remotes are probably overkill for street class. I'd go with the non-remotes if I had it to do over again (they weren't available back in 2011 or whatever when I was one of the first to try anything semi-serious with the E9x M3 autocross-wise), for ease of install, ease of removal, and because the remotes are really better suited for a car that needs longer-run stability and heat resistance, neither of which is that important for a street/autocross car. That said, if you just want to burn money, they're awesome, and having the canisters up where you can get to them is very convenient for nitrogen pressure adjustments. And on Hoosiers, the car was magic. This thread makes me miss hoosiers.
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      02-18-2015, 11:03 AM   #170
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On the BMWUSA web site, the LSD is not listed as an official option for the car. It is located in the "accessories" section. Not sure how that effects the outcome of the argument, but it states that it does not include installation costs, and that the final cost will depend on your "centers" (i.e. dealer as it refers to dealers as BMW centers) labor rate and that freight costs may be additional. I see nothing on here yet that does anything but support the notion that these are dealer installed accessories. It's likely a moot point anyway given the points made just above by Rich.
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      02-18-2015, 01:29 PM   #171
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Yeah that's true. But if you have a document that says my LSD was installed in NJ before shipping to the dealer, it should be good. The definition is pretty clear, and all the SEB did in their "tech bulletin" was regurgitate it because they probably had no evidence (back in August) that the LSD could be port-installed. Now, if BMW is unwilling or unable to properly paper the car's history (which I doubt) that could be a problem. A port-installed part (as in, THIS part installed on THIS car) is considered a factory-installed part, regardless of whether or not it's also available through other channels. The logical leap people make is that if it's OK if port-installed, then it's just plain ok for everyone even if it's a retrofit, and that's to my knowledge not the case under the rules.
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      02-18-2015, 02:28 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
The logical leap people make is that if it's OK if port-installed, then it's just plain ok for everyone even if it's a retrofit, and that's to my knowledge not the case under the rules.
I don't believe this is accurate anymore (I think it used to be?). If it is a port-installed part for your year/make/model anyone can install it regardless of build sheet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Section 12 - Automotive Definitions - SCCA Rulebook
Standard Part:
An item of standard or optional equipment that could have been ordered
with the car, installed on the factory production line, and delivered through
a dealer in the United States. Port-installed options provided by the manufacturer
are considered to be the same as those installed on the factory
production line. Dealer-installed options or deletions (except as required
by factory directives), no matter how common or what their origin, are not
included in this definition. This definition does not allow the updating or
backdating of parts.
I bolded the relevant part. I believe the updating/backdating comment is in regards to a PIO that wasn't available in 2013 but was in 2014, meaning it would be illegal to install on the 2013.
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      02-18-2015, 03:36 PM   #173
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Oh ok, that's even better then. I didn't think the rules got any more granular than model year so yeah, retrofit to model year where a port-installed option was not available I thought was not OK under any circumstances
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      03-03-2015, 03:05 PM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
I have a thread in the suspension forum, and there's a thread in this forum (search "Ultimate SCCA A-stock build" for much reading

Short answer, the front reservoirs are routed to, and rest in, the windshield drains and secured with fuel cell foam, this allows easy access without subjecting them to the heat of the engine bay, and the foam allows water to flow past without clogging the drains. The fronts have quick-disconnects so I just routed the lines along the harness runs

Rears are just zip-tied to the carpet behind the wheel wells inside the trunk, routed the hoses through the vent panels behind each wheel well

I think the MCS remotes are probably overkill for street class. I'd go with the non-remotes if I had it to do over again (they weren't available back in 2011 or whatever when I was one of the first to try anything semi-serious with the E9x M3 autocross-wise), for ease of install, ease of removal, and because the remotes are really better suited for a car that needs longer-run stability and heat resistance, neither of which is that important for a street/autocross car. That said, if you just want to burn money, they're awesome, and having the canisters up where you can get to them is very convenient for nitrogen pressure adjustments. And on Hoosiers, the car was magic. This thread makes me miss hoosiers.

I don't know how I missed this! Buried in the M235 discussion I guess? Thanks for the response.

Do you have any pictures of the routing? I'm interested in getting shocks with remotes -- but I can't say that I'm interested in dealing with the install.
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      03-03-2015, 08:40 PM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chono View Post
I don't know how I missed this! Buried in the M235 discussion I guess? Thanks for the response.

Do you have any pictures of the routing? I'm interested in getting shocks with remotes -- but I can't say that I'm interested in dealing with the install.
How dare you suggest breaking our solidarity pact?! I don't want to have to afford shocks!
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      03-03-2015, 09:12 PM   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexpelagi View Post
How dare you suggest breaking our solidarity pact?! I don't want to have to afford shocks!


Oh. Sorry. I wasn't aware of the pact.
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