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09-10-2014, 06:37 AM | #45 | |
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09-10-2014, 02:41 PM | #46 | |
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09-10-2014, 03:14 PM | #47 |
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I'm sorry but that should I switch off DSC thread was stone cold stupid! I lost a lot of respect for members of this forum after reading through all that. A noob asks a basic, very important question, and all of a sudden everyone's a professional formula 1 racer. Before you knew it, cat fights between internet "pro racers" broke out left and right, with serious hurt feelings all over the place. It's not surprising that people are dying when noobs can't even get a basic question answered, without plenty of chest beating.
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09-10-2014, 04:15 PM | #48 | |
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09-10-2014, 10:55 PM | #49 |
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500hp cars? I still see that as the exception rather than the rule..at least at the events I participate in.
I can't think of a student that just turned DSC off that wasn't a little nervous or hesitant. I know there are idiots out there that can't drive and turn it off...but this is, IMO, the exception rather than the rule. After reading through this again...my observation is that most people that come to the track are pretty serious about the safety aspect. THAT'S WHY THEY ARE AT THE TRACK! Most are car nuts and care about their cars. If anything, most end up loving their cars even more after their first event. And students have made a significant investment into one event...fees, hotels, gas, time away, tech, car prep, etc. So the last thing they want is to crash or damage their car. While there IS a problem and I think the sport needs to change, I don't think, as an instructor with a well run DE org, will encounter a yahoo very often or have to tolerate them for very long. I don't want to make the perception that death or even crashing is imminent. Don't forget that the DE org running the event plays a HUGE role in how much risk you'll face. But the sport of HPDE can't wait until its a crisis to change. Change does need to happen now.
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09-10-2014, 11:56 PM | #50 |
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Yes I whole heartedly agree. We have to have the mentality that even a single incident of a major injury or death of a student and/or instructor should be considered "too many." We also cannot think that it will not happen in our own 'well run' organizations, I seriously don't want to think of a day that it happens in an event, which I am helping its organization and have responsibilities to the attendees and the organization; a nightmare scenario for me.
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09-11-2014, 01:20 AM | #51 |
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No death/injury in this footage, but how'd you like to get killed by these numbnuts while waiting at a redlight...
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09-11-2014, 04:47 AM | #52 | |
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Overconfident inexperienced young drivers are already the most dangerous driver group on public roads, in a 400 bhp M3 they become a very high risk group. Track tuition is going to help these guys but its a group that needs more than everyday instructors. |
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09-11-2014, 10:02 AM | #53 | |
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Lastly, I wouldn't use the word "sport" to describe HPDE. This actually contributes to the issue of accidents. I think the best way to describe it is: "recreational circuit driving".
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09-11-2014, 10:28 AM | #54 | |
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09-11-2014, 10:30 AM | #55 | |
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09-11-2014, 08:13 PM | #56 | |
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My mentality as a new guy at the track who has come from 20 years of experience driving on the road was, "Wow, I'm a horrible driver. I need to drop any ego and learn everything I can." I always assumed that most new track guys feel like that, but I guess not. Track days were not enough for me. I wanted to become a better driver faster and 1 track day every month just wasn't enough seat time and it wasn't the best place to learn car control. So I supplemented track time with any skid pad/autox course time I could so I could get the feel of the car with DSC OFF, and I took an advanced car control class with Skip Barber which taught me the correct way to control oversteer, be comfortable with it, and use it to my advantage. The biggest factor in my rapid driving improvement came from taking everything I learned in real life and practicing in simulators. People mock "video games" like Gran Turismo as just a game, but when you have the proper hardware setup and apply real driving skill, it's quite realistic. At least realistic enough to where it actually makes you a better driver at the track. I would spend maybe 2-3 hours max on track at a typical HPDE. Then I would spend 2-3 hours a night driving the same track in the same car in GT5 and apply everything I learned in real life to the game. Each subsequent time I went back to laguna seca, I would be 2-3 seconds faster and far more comfortable. My M3 was the first car I've ever taken to the track. Started about 2.5 years ago and have done 30 track days now. I started running DSC OFF on my 6th track day and that was after a few skid pad/autox events and that Skip Barber Advanced CC. I've spun out exactly 0 times (besides the one time I was intentionally trying to hold a drift too long at a private event). I could be a lot faster, but my lap times show that I'm definitely not going slow. When I drive with MDM on at the track, it feels like my car is broken. It intervenes far too much. Driving with DSC OFF early was one of the best things I've done, but I feel like I went about it in the right way. So I don't think DSC OFF is inherently the problem either. My point is, there are guys with huge egos who just go out there and want to show off how fast their car is, and there are others who really want to learn to be good drivers and take the time to do it in a safe manner. The problem lies in the drivers that show up to HPDE's with the wrong mentality and maybe there's an issue with how beginners advance too quickly in HPDE's. It's not the tracks, the cars, or DSC OFF. I'm right with you on your first sentence.
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09-11-2014, 10:03 PM | #57 | |
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I will agree that the risks increase as you go up in speed and run groups. But to generalize everyone and every event based of your experience is wrong. Because not everyone experiences an average of a crash per event. Yeah, I've driven in TX where there are tracks with run off BUT there are plenty of dangerous turns. I've also done 5 days at the Milwaukee Mile where there are walls on both sides of the track and zero grass on the exits of the fastest turns. I've seen 3 spins/offs. No crashes...that's it. There's the difference...different DE orgs attract a certain kind of person. I've driven with a wide range of DE orgs and there is a wide range of attention to safety. The difference with the DE org I drove and instructed with in TX IS they discuss, in depth, what to do when a driver goes off. Instructors are EXPECTED to discuss this with the students. Lap times are not discussed between students and instructors. I actually discourage lap timing in the novice and intermediate groups. I would re-evaluate who you drive with if you're seeing at least a crash per event. I would not tolerate that rate of incidents...I wouldn't be doing HPDEs if I thought a crash at an event was normal.
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09-11-2014, 10:13 PM | #58 | |
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"Man, I ran with balls to the wall track driving org and they have me tons of open track time. Best track event ever". I think too many people get sucked into the open track thing. IMO, driving on open track is much easier and gets boring. I don't mind negotiating traffic which I think tests so many critical skills for an intermediate driver. How many times do you see the bad offs and incidents from taking a pass or getting impatient to get a pass? I also see "automatic promotions" based on # of events. You can still be a shitty, unsafe driver after spending 10,000 hours on track.
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09-11-2014, 10:24 PM | #59 | |
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09-12-2014, 01:19 AM | #60 |
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So here's my question about DSC (or TC/SC)...why even turn it off if you are driving smoothly? Because if you drive smoothly, it won't get in the way in the first place...right? Turning them off and having to make corrections implies that you are not driving smoothly, correct? I noticed that the smoother I am the less TC/SC comes on for me when I leave them on.
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09-12-2014, 03:37 AM | #61 | |
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09-12-2014, 07:23 AM | #62 | |
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MdM has a higher threshold for this but that has its own problems as it tries to trail brake the inside wheels into every corner, masking poor inputs and worse, cooking brakes. If learning is the primary goal, Switch it off. If you're just out there to have a good time and don't want to lose it, leave it on but your learning curve will not be as steep and it could cause some false starts.
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09-12-2014, 01:23 PM | #63 | |
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09-12-2014, 06:36 PM | #64 |
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Instructors should have modified drivers education track cars that have two
steering wheels and sets of pedals so that the instructor can intervene when the student makes a potentially disastrous mistake. I'm very grateful to all the instructors who took the great risk to teach me, it would have been very difficult to learn without them. The thing that I learned the most from was having my instructor drive my car flat out so that I could feel exactly what he's doing. It immediately translated because I knew the feeling of my own car so well.
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09-12-2014, 07:59 PM | #65 | |
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09-12-2014, 08:23 PM | #66 | |
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