Upgrade to ESS vt-2 625 or 650?

[Jbrown26]

I currently have the vt-550 and plan to upgrade this week. I was about to order the 650 until I realized it didn't look like there was that much of a difference between the 625 and 650. The 625 also saves a lot of money.

Yes, I will be upgrading the rod bearings as well.

Also, can these kits with the upgraded fuel injectors handle e85 with a tune?


Please let me know your opinions. Thanks!

[S65B40YYC]

Subscribed, I have a VT-575 kit and am interested in either 625 or 650 upgrade also

[SYT_Shadow]

ESS won't mess with E85, so you'd have to go with 3rd party tuning to accomplish that. Suffice to say I would only have ESS tune my ESS supercharger.

I've driven 625 and 650 ESS cars. Both felt well into the 'retardedly powerful' category, however, one of the owners had upgraded their 625 to 650 and said they could really notice the difference.

If I was upgrading an existing kit I'd go with 650 for sure. Because if 550/575 aren't enough, why not go to the max directly?

[Longboarder]

If you have the 550 kit, I would do a (very reliable) water/meth system and change to a 6-7psi blower pulley from the 575/595 kit and not even change the tune as it will adapt. Given that you are in a hot climate you will be making a lot more power than a guy with a 625/650 kit because the air to water intercooler system in the 625/650 only has 1 gallon of fluid and it circulates through the hot engine bay.

[chayes11]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

If you have the 550 kit, I would do a (very reliable) water/meth system and change to a 6-7psi blower pulley from the 575/595 kit and not even change the tune as it will adapt. Given that you are in a hot climate you will be making a lot more power than a guy with a 625/650 kit because the air to water intercooler system in the 625/650 only has 1 gallon of fluid and it circulates through the hot engine bay.

You deff kno what your talking about. I've seen your ride. Lol. I also have the 550 kit. Do you have a brand of water/meth system that you'd recommend?! I've been considering upgrading as well.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by chayes11

You deff kno what your talking about. I've seen your ride. Lol. I also have the 550 kit. Do you have a brand of water/meth system that you'd recommend?! I've been considering upgrading as well.

I have problems with all the off-the-shelf kits. I have had the meth lines fracture and spill all over my engine bay. I learned my lesson (thankfully nothing catastrophic occurred).

I only use the pump and controller from the kits. I like the simplicity of AEM or Coolingmist. Their controllers allow for changes to meth flow. The AEM I have in my 911 also has an activation button to activate the pump so i can be assured meth will flow when i need it.

As far as a tank, line and fittings are concerned, I use a dedicated fuel cell with a bladder, and only steel braided lines and aircraft fittings. It's basically like and OEM fuel tank and I dont have to worry about it and can run 100% meth safely. I wouldnt recommend 100% meth - boost juice is probably enough to cool the charge sufficiently.

All this stuff can be sourced for maybe $1,000. Not cheap but the alternative is upgrading to the 625 kit but then if you did that i would highly recommend a larger intercooler water tank. So the water/meth system on the 550 kit with an upgraded pulley starts sounding like the more economical option.

[Iyzmi]

I like sharing this post when people ask about 625 vs 650.

Originally Posted by sales@ESSTuning

We also use a different injector on the 650 than the rest of the lineup. The increase in boost is part of what adds power but the 650 software is very different than the 625 software. VT2-625 is your best all around setup if you want very good power on the stock motor IMO. The VT2-650 is very dependent on fuel quality as it maxes out the stock motor and fuel system. The 650 kit was designed for customers who want to squeeze every last HP out of the stock motor and are ok with pushing limits. It is also meant for customers who understand that you have to use the product as designed due to the added stress it puts on the motor.

[Properstyle]

I saw 625kit, source your own pulley and add meth. A 550kit is nice but if you put a smaller pulley on it you have no choice but to have meth.

[Jbrown26]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

If you have the 550 kit, I would do a (very reliable) water/meth system and change to a 6-7psi blower pulley from the 575/595 kit and not even change the tune as it will adapt. Given that you are in a hot climate you will be making a lot more power than a guy with a 625/650 kit because the air to water intercooler system in the 625/650 only has 1 gallon of fluid and it circulates through the hot engine bay.

Can you send me sources to look into doing this please? I know nothing about water/meth systems so wouldn't even know where to begin. Also roughly how much power would this make you think?

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by Jbrown26

Can you send me sources to look into doing this please? I know nothing about water/meth systems so wouldn't even know where to begin. Also roughly how much power would this make you think?

With this system, it's not about making more power, it's about keeping the peak power the system is capable of making. These things heat soak and pull timing like crazy. I proved it years ago with EAS on their dyno...after experiencing sluggish performance on hot days and at the track. The solution for me was a supplemental 5 gallon water tank to divert the water in the ESS air/water intercooler out from circulating through the hot engine bay and increasing the capacity from 1 gallon to 6 gallons. In your case, if your system is capable of 500 wheel hp, you can easily lose 120 wheel hp with hot intake temps, bringing you down to near stock power levels.

Your system makes less boost but doesn't rely on an intercooler. Regardless, power is highly dependent on IATs. So when IAT's rise, power drops dramatically. The intercooled systems cannot rely on water/meth to cool IATs because the heat exchanger is in the manifold, which blocks the meth flow (heats the post-meth intake right back up if the water in the heat exchanger is hot).

In your case, there is no heat exchanger in the manifold so there is a clear path for the water/meth to do it's job and cool intake temps.

I am not a wrencher but I do have a shop that sourced all the parts in my meth system here in SoCal. They are called EMD Auto. Owned by Thomas Emmanuele, former GIAC tuner. Awesome guy and can source you everything needed: https://www.emdauto.com/

Also, Jeff Howerton's website is a great place to learn about water/meth and his site is here: http://howertonengineering.com/

In terms of install, find a good shop near you that has done meth on BMW's. No need to change the tune for meth. Just have it engaged when you hit 2-3psi.

[Iyzmi]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

With this system, it's not about making more power, it's about keeping the peak power the system is capable of making. These things heat soak and pull timing like crazy. I proved it years ago with EAS on their dyno...after experiencing sluggish performance on hot days and at the track. The solution for me was a supplemental 5 gallon water tank to divert the water in the ESS air/water intercooler out from circulating through the hot engine bay and increasing the capacity from 1 gallon to 6 gallons. In your case, if your system is capable of 500 wheel hp, you can easily lose 120 wheel hp with hot intake temps, bringing you down to near stock power levels.

Your system makes less boost but doesn't rely on an intercooler. Regardless, power is highly dependent on IATs. So when IAT's rise, power drops dramatically. The intercooled systems cannot rely on water/meth to cool IATs because the heat exchanger is in the manifold, which blocks the meth flow (heats the post-meth intake right back up if the water in the heat exchanger is hot).

In your case, there is no heat exchanger in the manifold so there is a clear path for the water/meth to do it's job and cool intake temps.

I am not a wrencher but I do have a shop that sourced all the parts in my meth system here in SoCal. They are called EMD Auto. Owned by Thomas Emmanuele, former GIAC tuner. Awesome guy and can source you everything needed: https://www.emdauto.com/

Also, Jeff Howerton's website is a great place to learn about water/meth and his site is here: http://howertonengineering.com/

In terms of install, find a good shop near you that has done meth on BMW's. No need to change the tune for meth. Just have it engaged when you hit 2-3psi.

This is very useful insight and explains why almost nobody runs meth with 625/650 kits.

[Jbrown26]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

With this system, it's not about making more power, it's about keeping the peak power the system is capable of making. These things heat soak and pull timing like crazy. I proved it years ago with EAS on their dyno...after experiencing sluggish performance on hot days and at the track. The solution for me was a supplemental 5 gallon water tank to divert the water in the ESS air/water intercooler out from circulating through the hot engine bay and increasing the capacity from 1 gallon to 6 gallons. In your case, if your system is capable of 500 wheel hp, you can easily lose 120 wheel hp with hot intake temps, bringing you down to near stock power levels.

Your system makes less boost but doesn't rely on an intercooler. Regardless, power is highly dependent on IATs. So when IAT's rise, power drops dramatically. The intercooled systems cannot rely on water/meth to cool IATs because the heat exchanger is in the manifold, which blocks the meth flow (heats the post-meth intake right back up if the water in the heat exchanger is hot).

In your case, there is no heat exchanger in the manifold so there is a clear path for the water/meth to do it's job and cool intake temps.

I am not a wrencher but I do have a shop that sourced all the parts in my meth system here in SoCal. They are called EMD Auto. Owned by Thomas Emmanuele, former GIAC tuner. Awesome guy and can source you everything needed: https://www.emdauto.com/

Also, Jeff Howerton's website is a great place to learn about water/meth and his site is here: http://howertonengineering.com/

In terms of install, find a good shop near you that has done meth on BMW's. No need to change the tune for meth. Just have it engaged when you hit 2-3psi.

Thank you for your input, much appreciated. So say I upgrade to the 625, I cannot use this system? Only on my 550?

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by Jbrown26

Thank you for your input, much appreciated. So say I upgrade to the 625, I cannot use this system? Only on my 550?

Correct - water meth doesn't do anything to prevent heat soak on the intercooled kits from my testing. The larger water tank is the only option here, and has proven fantastic results.

[itsnotq]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Correct - water meth doesn't do anything to prevent heat soak on the intercooled kits from my testing. The larger water tank is the only option here, and has proven fantastic results.

Talk about supercharger knowledge. Learn something new everyday, thanks for that

[S65B40YYC]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Correct - water meth doesn't do anything to prevent heat soak on the intercooled kits from my testing. The larger water tank is the only option here, and has proven fantastic results.

Thanks for all your replies Longboarder, I really appreciate your knowledge as most of us have seen your videos!

Seeing as I have the VT-2 kit, can you provide any details in regards to the larger water tank etc? Is EMD auto also up to speed on this tank upgrade in regards to parts and required plumbing?


TIA

[pbonsalb]

You can run a larger and/or multi pass heat exchanger in the front of the car, try to fit small fans on it, use reservoir in the spare tire well to expand capacity of the systems coolant, and route the lines above the under car shielding. You could use a stronger pump but speed is not so critical and you are probably using 3/4 line. Sometimes a helper pump relieves stress on the primary pump and increases its output.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by S65B40YYC

Thanks for all your replies Longboarder, I really appreciate your knowledge as most of us have seen your videos!

Seeing as I have the VT-2 kit, can you provide any details in regards to the larger water tank etc? Is EMD auto also up to speed on this tank upgrade in regards to parts and required plumbing?


TIA

The larger 5 gallon water tank is fantastic. The thermal capacity is exponentially better than the system used by ESS, which is basically the same system used in the old Merc E55 AMG.

The biggest test was at the track - 20 minutes at WOT and the water in the tank stayed relatively cool...retaining most of the car's peak power potential. Of course at the airstrip with the ability to use ice, I could create IATs below ambient and make more power than theoretically possible at the given density altitude.

The only issue is the compromise of trunk space. It can take up part of the trunk because that's the only location possible with a 5 gal tank.

MRF Engineering in SoCal or Powehaus Performance in NJ are two shops that can source all the parts and perfom install. Of course if you aren't in either of these locations, try to find a shop that has done rear water/ice tank install as it can otherwise get quite tricky.

[Patrón]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

You can run a larger and/or multi pass heat exchanger in the front of the car, try to fit small fans on it, use reservoir in the spare tire well to expand capacity of the systems coolant, and route the lines above the under car shielding. You could use a stronger pump but speed is not so critical and you are probably using 3/4 line. Sometimes a helper pump relieves stress on the primary pump and increases its output.

I agree with the larger heat exchanger. VF makes a large front mount that is not in front of the oil cooler. i think that in itself is a big plus.

I would do this before doing the tank in the trunk UNLESS it is a plastic tank. ice in the remote 5 gal tank is great for 5 minutes. then it makes the cooling worse because it contributes to heat soak. for airstrip or five minutes of fun, the ice is fantastic. longer than that is is inferior because it increases the heat soak problem.

[Iyzmi]

Originally Posted by Patrón

I agree with the larger heat exchanger. VF makes a large front mount that is not in front of the oil cooler. i think that in itself is a big plus.

I would do this before doing the tank in the trunk UNLESS it is a plastic tank. ice in the remote 5 gal tank is great for 5 minutes. then it makes the cooling worse because it contributes to heat soak. for airstrip or five minutes of fun, the ice is fantastic. longer than that is is inferior because it increases the heat soak problem.

I didn't know VF offered anything other than what comes with their kits, which is the same intercooler ESS uses. Do you have any more info on the large front mount?

[Patrón]

Originally Posted by Iyzmi

I didn't know VF offered anything other than what comes with their kits, which is the same intercooler ESS uses. Do you have any more info on the large front mount?

if i was planning on keeping my kit/car, this was my next purchase along with selling my ice box.
yes sir, here is a link to their page.
http://www.vfengineering.com/m3-oil-cooler/




1: M3 S/C Race Water Intercooler
The new VF620R supercharger system for the E92 2007>2014 M3 V8 features an oversize front water radiator for racers participating in “runway racing”. Often overlooked by designers, cooling systems must be designed with the capacity to sustain full throttle through 4 gears without releasing throttle. It requires tremendous design tolerance not only in the fuel management but also in the charge cooling department. After extensive data logging with independent thermocouples throughout the air system, VF-Engineers found that upgrading the water cooler radiator kept air temps down through successive gears and not just a dyno pull in a single gear. Analytics can be catered to show benefits of an upgrade, but we put this system to test on 16-19 psi supercharger setups to explore its potential. Positive results meant that we introduced this product immediately for the 6-10psi kits and not just our 17psi fully race built engine kits. This upgrade is fully compatible for street use kits and available to purchase as an upgrade to replace your existing “street” radiator originally supplied with your VF-Engineering supercharger kit. The radiator shown in the image above is the item described. [VFK91-01]Price USD $795

[Iyzmi]

Originally Posted by Patrón

if i was planning on keeping my kit/car, this was my next purchase along with selling my ice box.
yes sir, here is a link to their page.
http://www.vfengineering.com/m3-oil-cooler/




1: M3 S/C Race Water Intercooler
The new VF620R supercharger system for the E92 2007>2014 M3 V8 features an oversize front water radiator for racers participating in “runway racing”. Often overlooked by designers, cooling systems must be designed with the capacity to sustain full throttle through 4 gears without releasing throttle. It requires tremendous design tolerance not only in the fuel management but also in the charge cooling department. After extensive data logging with independent thermocouples throughout the air system, VF-Engineers found that upgrading the water cooler radiator kept air temps down through successive gears and not just a dyno pull in a single gear. Analytics can be catered to show benefits of an upgrade, but we put this system to test on 16-19 psi supercharger setups to explore its potential. Positive results meant that we introduced this product immediately for the 6-10psi kits and not just our 17psi fully race built engine kits. This upgrade is fully compatible for street use kits and available to purchase as an upgrade to replace your existing “street” radiator originally supplied with your VF-Engineering supercharger kit. The radiator shown in the image above is the item described. [VFK91-01]Price USD $795

Very cool, I had never heard of the VF620R. I wonder how much of the front clip needs to be chopped off to mount that thing. Probably pretty similar to the AA air-to-air intercooler I would guess. Definitely looking forward to seeing some reviews on this...

[azndrunk74]

Originally Posted by Iyzmi

Very cool, I had never heard of the VF620R. I wonder how much of the front clip needs to be chopped off to mount that thing. Probably pretty similar to the AA air-to-air intercooler I would guess. Definitely looking forward to seeing some reviews on this...

It's all CSF parts (friend has it on his VF650). You can do the same to your ESS kit. There is some modification required but I don't think it's bad at all. I can get the details from the installer if you're interested. Just shoot me a PM.