Upgrade to ESS vt-2 625 or 650?

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by Patrón

I agree with the larger heat exchanger. VF makes a large front mount that is not in front of the oil cooler. i think that in itself is a big plus.

I would do this before doing the tank in the trunk UNLESS it is a plastic tank. ice in the remote 5 gal tank is great for 5 minutes. then it makes the cooling worse because it contributes to heat soak. for airstrip or five minutes of fun, the ice is fantastic. longer than that is is inferior because it increases the heat soak problem.

How can that be true? The stock 1 gallon system is horrible. It circulates the water in the hot engine bay. My old car lost tons of power on the track due to the water getting really hot despite the heat exchanger getting lots of airflow. The problem is that the water is only 1 gallon and circulates through the engine bay into the manifold on top of the throttle bodies. Increasing the water 5 extra gallons and having it circulate outside of the engine bay into the trunk dramatically decreased my IATs for daily driving, 20 minute track sessions, and yes airstrip too. There was no situation that I wasn't dramatically faster with the increased 5 gallon capacity tank.

[Patrón]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

How can that be true? The stock 1 gallon system is horrible. It circulates the water in the hot engine bay. My old car lost tons of power on the track due to the water getting really hot despite the heat exchanger getting lots of airflow. The problem is that the water is only 1 gallon and circulates through the engine bay into the manifold on top of the throttle bodies. Increasing the water 5 extra gallons and having it circulate outside of the engine bay into the trunk dramatically decreased my IATs for daily driving, 20 minute track sessions, and yes airstrip too. There was no situation that I wasn't dramatically faster with the increased 5 gallon capacity tank.

the temp of the aluminum tank gets hot over time. the water in the tank gets hot and the aluminum then started to act like a thermos keeping the water warm, then temps gradually rose/rise. in normal driving conditions the stock ess system works better because the plastic resiv and short hose configuration circulated the water quicker and didn't have the heat soak of the aluminum box. the box acts exactly like the ess aluminum manifold. they do not dissipate heat and gradually increase in tempatures. the only way to lower the tempature in the 5 gal system is to add ice. my ice would melt in 5-15 minutes, then it gradually got worse. i didn't log temp differences but i'd guess the box would get 10 deg hotter than the ess stock system in a daily setting. if i were to do it again, i'd do it with a larger heat exchanger in the front like the VF and only connect the 5 gal box for racing at the 1/4 or airstrip. I even considered a heat exchanger in the trunk with dual fans like sand rails and offroad vehicles use but I lost interest.

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by Patrón

I agree with the larger heat exchanger. VF makes a large front mount that is not in front of the oil cooler. i think that in itself is a big plus.

I would do this before doing the tank in the trunk UNLESS it is a plastic tank. ice in the remote 5 gal tank is great for 5 minutes. then it makes the cooling worse because it contributes to heat soak. for airstrip or five minutes of fun, the ice is fantastic. longer than that is is inferior because it increases the heat soak problem.

When we were testing ice tanks at NFZ, an insulated ice chest turned into warm water after a single run. Easily 5-7 gal capacity (including lines). An aluminum reservoir tank under the hood wouldn't last long at all. Then you're just carrying weight.

[Patrón]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

When we were testing ice tanks at NFZ, an insulated ice chest turned into warm water after a single run. Easily 5-7 gal capacity (including lines). An aluminum reservoir tank under the hood wouldn't last long at all. Then you're just carrying weight.

I searched for 1-2 gal tanks to mount in the engine compartment and ended up mounting a 5 gal in the trunk.

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by Patrón

I searched for 1-2 gal tanks to mount in the engine compartment and ended up mounting a 5 gal in the trunk.

Ice tanks are good for quick runs, but will break down into water relatively quickly. We were draining/refilling every pass, but the benefits were worth it. Trunk is a better idea for the tank location, since it's away from engine heat and you gain a little extra capacity in the lines. Like you said earlier, there's no way it'll last for full 20 minute sessions.

Aluminum will condensate, an ice chest or fuel cell would be better suited. IMHO, a misting system or even mild water injection is better idea for track environment. We've done this for a quite a few locals with good results.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by Patrón

the temp of the aluminum tank gets hot over time. the water in the tank gets hot and the aluminum then started to act like a thermos keeping the water warm, then temps gradually rose/rise. in normal driving conditions the stock ess system works better because the plastic resiv and short hose configuration circulated the water quicker and didn't have the heat soak of the aluminum box. the box acts exactly like the ess aluminum manifold. they do not dissipate heat and gradually increase in tempatures. the only way to lower the tempature in the 5 gal system is to add ice. my ice would melt in 5-15 minutes, then it gradually got worse. i didn't log temp differences but i'd guess the box would get 10 deg hotter than the ess stock system in a daily setting. if i were to do it again, i'd do it with a larger heat exchanger in the front like the VF and only connect the 5 gal box for racing at the 1/4 or airstrip. I even considered a heat exchanger in the trunk with dual fans like sand rails and offroad vehicles use but I lost interest.

Not to be rude, but his is incorrect. A single layer of aluminum is a terrible thermal insulator for conductive transfer. A thermos works by sandwiching a layer of air/vacuum (air has low thermal conductivity, full vacuum has zero) between an inner container and an outer container, thus minimizing transfer through the air/vacuum. Pour hot fluid into a single layer aluminum container and you will feel the heat transfer through to the outside almost immediately.

Plastic would actually insulate much better than aluminum (with the exception of large thickness difference) and transfers heat much slower. It is thermally better for the intake manifold because it reduces transfer from the hot engine and engine bay to the interior of the manifold (again depends on thickness of the material throughout the manifold though).

Heat soak is a condition where heat is absorbed and not dissipated. If you place an equal dimension aluminum tank and typical plastic tank with amount X of water at temperature Y in an environment at temperature Z, the water in the aluminum tank will reach temperature Z quicker whether temperature Y is higher than temperature Z or vice versa.

[Properstyle]

Originally Posted by ksteckba

Not to be rude, but his is incorrect. A single layer of aluminum is a terrible thermal insulator for conductive transfer. A thermos works by sandwiching a layer of air/vacuum (air has low thermal conductivity, full vacuum has zero) between an inner container and an outer container, thus minimizing transfer through the air/vacuum. Pour hot fluid into a single layer aluminum container and you will feel the heat transfer through to the outside almost immediately.

Plastic would actually insulate much better than aluminum (with the exception of large thickness difference) and transfers heat much slower. It is thermally better for the intake manifold because it reduces transfer from the hot engine and engine bay to the interior of the manifold (again depends on thickness of the material throughout the manifold though).

Heat soak is a condition where heat is absorbed and not dissipated. If you place an equal dimension aluminum tank and typical plastic tank with amount X of water at temperature Y in an environment at temperature Z, the water in the aluminum tank will reach temperature Z quicker whether temperature Y is higher than temperature Z or vice versa.

You do realize that you just agreed with what he said stating the metal ice tank in the trunk was not effect and that the plastic container that comes with the kit stock works more effectively? He worded I wrong in the being but you both litterkay just described the same effect and issue. Smh 🤦🏾*♂️

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by Properstyle

You do realize that you just agreed with what he said stating the metal ice tank in the trunk was not effect and that the plastic container that comes with the kit stock works more effectively? He worded I wrong in the being but you both litterkay just described the same effect and issue. Smh 🤦🏾*♂️

No, he stated the aluminum tank would insulate the contained water more than a plastic tank, and prevent heat transfer to/from the tank into the surrounding environment (i.e. prolong heat soak), which is the opposite. The aluminum tank will heat the water faster if in a relatively hot environment, but will also cool the water faster if in a relatively cool environment.

I guess the important question is, what is the ITT (in trunk temperature) for each region, exhaust, and diffuser setup...that could change which material is the best choice.

[Patrón]

Originally Posted by ksteckba

No, he stated the aluminum tank would insulate the contained water more than a plastic tank, and prevent heat transfer to/from the tank into the surrounding environment (i.e. prolong heat soak), which is the opposite. The aluminum tank will heat the water faster if in a relatively hot environment, but will also cool the water faster if in a relatively cool environment.

I guess the important question is, what is the ITT (in trunk temperature) for each region, exhaust, and diffuser setup...that could change which material is the best choice.

The aluminum starts to heat up and once it gets hot it does not cool down unless ice is put into it. The five gallon tank would be better if it were plastic but as the guys at eas stated even an insulated plastic tank still didn’t work well. It could be a twenty gallon yeti tank and it still won’t help, the only solution is more or bigger heat exchangers.

For daily driving the stock ess setup is ten degrees cooler than a five gallon water tank. And the more you drive, the hotter the tank water gets where the stock setup maintains 20+ over ambient consistently.

In the trunk the exhaust didn’t play a role in the heat of the tank. I can drive my car pretty hard on a hot day and the plastic trunk area doesn’t get hot.

[Longboarder]

This went sideways.

The point is to keep the water cool. You do that by increasing the thermal capacity of the system and get the water circulation outside of the hot engine bay.

The trunk mount 5 gal aluminum tank meets these objectives. And you don't need ice. At EAS we dyno'd both their car and my car many many times with various water tanks hooked up. We pointed a laser light temp reader at the water in the tank. The car would make the same power whether the water was ice cold or at room temperature. It wasn't until the water reached 115 degrees F before power started declining.

I went to the airstrip and track and even on hot days without ice, the water in the aluminum tank pretty much remained at ambient. It was an absolutely amazing difference from the stock ESS system.

[S65B40YYC]

So I pulled the trigger and I have the 650 upgrade coming from ESS for my VT2-575 kit. I have a 6 speed manual and figure I will need a clutch with this power upgrade in the near future as I am running the stock clutch.

Seeing as I have an 08', what do you guys recommend for a clutch and flywheel for a car that is 95% street driven? I don't want a super heavy clutch but if I have to I will deal with it. TIA

[alefcole]

Why did you choose ESS 650 vs VF with larger heat exchanger? Pros cons?? Please share your thoughts. Ty

[SAMM3Y]

Originally Posted by alefcole

Why did you choose ESS 650 vs VF with larger heat exchanger? Pros cons?? Please share your thoughts. Ty

The larger vf "race" heat exchanger isn't standard in the kit, it's an option.

[Nazty Naze One!]

Originally Posted by S65B40YYC

So I pulled the trigger and I have the 650 upgrade coming from ESS for my VT2-575 kit. I have a 6 speed manual and figure I will need a clutch with this power upgrade in the near future as I am running the stock clutch.

Seeing as I have an 08', what do you guys recommend for a clutch and flywheel for a car that is 95% street driven? I don't want a super heavy clutch but if I have to I will deal with it. TIA

For s street car just stick to stock

[GabeS]

Love this thread. Have there been any more advancements in the cooling dept since this thread died down?

[SAMM3Y]

I was thinking about mounting 40' of wound copper 3/4" tubing inside a YETI in the trunk and pump the water through the coil with the ice in cooler. The ice would certainly last longer and temp drop would depend on flow rate/velocity. Weight would be 25lbs for the cooler and 25lbs for the copper which would hold about a gallon of water so 8lbs plus heater hose with insulation and water capacity call it additional 12lbs. And 25lbs of ice. So in the end you're adding a lot of weight. It'll help keep that back end down though and balance the front end weight from the supercharger 😉
Or just use the yeti as an ice tank?

[darkbmw]

I would just use 5 gallons of Jameson and u should be good

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by SAMM3Y

I was thinking about mounting 40' of wound copper 3/4" tubing inside a YETI in the trunk and pump the water through the coil with the ice in cooler. The ice would certainly last longer and temp drop would depend on flow rate/velocity. Weight would be 25lbs for the cooler and 25lbs for the copper which would hold about a gallon of water so 8lbs plus heater hose with insulation and water capacity call it additional 12lbs. And 25lbs of ice. So in the end you're adding a lot of weight. It'll help keep that back end down though and balance the front end weight from the supercharger ��
Or just use the yeti as an ice tank?

We've done a similar setup at the 1/2 mi events and while dyno testing.

It's surprising how quickly you would go through ice. An ice chest full of ice would already be fully melted by the time staging (engine off/iced manifold) and a single pass was completed. For road course, a custom misting system on the heat exchanger would be better suited.

[GabeS]

Originally Posted by SAMM3Y

I was thinking about mounting 40' of wound copper 3/4" tubing inside a YETI in the trunk and pump the water through the coil with the ice in cooler. The ice would certainly last longer and temp drop would depend on flow rate/velocity. Weight would be 25lbs for the cooler and 25lbs for the copper which would hold about a gallon of water so 8lbs plus heater hose with insulation and water capacity call it additional 12lbs. And 25lbs of ice. So in the end you're adding a lot of weight. It'll help keep that back end down though and balance the front end weight from the supercharger 😉
Or just use the yeti as an ice tank?

May I suggest just using Dry ICE in that tank?

Will probably outlast the regular ice by a long time no?

[pbonsalb]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mod...r-tank%3famp=1

https://www.crracing.com/product/ice...al-w-4-outlets

[GabeS]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mod...r-tank%3famp=1

https://www.crracing.com/product/ice...al-w-4-outlets

[SAMM3Y]

My next thought is cutting up the radiator support and mounting a near double capacity intercooler behind the kidneys In front of the AC condenser... I'll run the plumbing up and over where the ram air used to be with a direct shot to the ess coolant tank. My thought process is it'll leave the oil cooler unhindered by an intercooler which I believe is more important but slightly hinder the radiator cooling which is fan cooled anyway.... seems to be plenty of plastic back there that hinders the radiator cooling anyway which I know directs airflow but I believe the stock ess intercooler stifles the oil cooler.... it'll be a lot less plumbing too then the less than optimal ess intercooler... thoughts?