HPDE experiments, results and observations

[rhyary]

There is oversteer and there is oversteer.
From the 9am session to the 3pm session I was fighting oversteer. The kind that the rear comes around unprovoked like on ice.

I am not going to drift my car on trackday to get heat into my rear tire.

Regardless, I appreciate all the suggestions and always read them carefully.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by rhyary

There is oversteer and there is oversteer.
From the 9am session to the 3pm session I was fighting oversteer. The kind that the rear comes around unprovoked like on ice.

I am not going to drift my car on trackday to get heat into my rear tire.

Regardless, I appreciate all the suggestions and always read them carefully.

Never said anything about drifting. Spinning the rears in a straight line is not drifting. Heavy braking in a straight line is not drifting. **Laterally loading the rear tires to optimal slip angle is not drifting.

The car doesn’t do anything unprovoked. Blaming the car (or conditions which are not that cold, particularly with all season tires) doesn’t really help you in the long run, although mismatched tires can be responsible for some of the issues. Just trying to help, because there are solutions to your problems if you don’t constantly overlook them. Take some of your ego out of the equation and actually try some things people suggest.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

Never said anything about drifting. Spinning the rears in a straight line is not drifting. Heavy braking in a straight line is not drifting. **Laterally loading the rear tires to optimal slip angle is not drifting.

The car doesn’t do anything unprovoked. Blaming the car (or conditions which are not that cold, particularly with all season tires) doesn’t really help you in the long run, although mismatched tires can be responsible for some of the issues. Just trying to help, because there are solutions to your problems if you don’t constantly overlook them. Take some of your ego out of the equation and actually try some things people suggest.

You are not the only one making suggestions and perhaps I am following suggestions not made by you.

It is not my ego that is in the way but it seems like it rubs you the wrong way that I don't agree with some of your suggestions/recommendations.

But this is ok by me. I appreciate the effort to help but that does not mean I have to take all recommendations or follow all suggestions.

It also does not mean I know nothing.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by rhyary

You are not the only one making suggestions and perhaps I am following suggestions not made by you.

It is not my ego that is in the way but it seems like it rubs you the wrong way that I don't agree with some of your suggestions/recommendations.

But this is ok by me. I appreciate the effort to help but that does not mean I have to take all recommendations or follow all suggestions.

It also does not mean I know nothing.

Doesn’t really rub me any particular way, but I just haven’t given up on you yet rhyary. I don’t see you really trying anyone’s suggestions, and many have been made by others. I don’t actually think I’ve made many suggestions. It’s not about agreeing or disagreeing. You have to try different things to grow.

We all let ego get in the way of our progression at times. Nobody is immune to it.

I guess I’m not sure what your goal is with the thread. Are you just using it as a journal? Is it in an attempt to use the community’s knowledge to improve your driving and/or car? Are you just trying to disseminate some data?

[Richneerd]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

Doesn’t really rub me any particular way, but I just haven’t given up on you yet rhyary. I don’t see you really trying anyone’s suggestions, and many have been made by others. I don’t actually think I’ve made many suggestions. It’s not about agreeing or disagreeing. You have to try different things to grow.

We all let ego get in the way of our progression at times. Nobody is immune to it.

I guess I’m not sure what your goal is with the thread. Are you just using it as a journal? Is it in an attempt to use the community’s knowledge to improve your driving and/or car? Are you just trying to disseminate some data?

I was reading a few pages, looks like a personal journal.

Glad you guys having fun!

I'm always at Thunderhill in California.

[rhyary]

The goal of this thread has shifted from when it started. It has now became more away for me to share what changes I am making yo the car, why I am making these changes and the results of those changes good or bad.

Along the way I also share the video results.

At times people have shared what they think which is great. Some offered advise, which is always interesting to hear.

If have a specific question, I typically open a new thread. for example, I may open a thread "How do you warm up your rear tires an a cold day"

At the moment I observed and concluded that I am moving from 750 to 800 spring in the front, and from 1000 to 1100 spring in the rear. I offered my reasons for doing so. I am not looking for guaranteed results. It is worth trying.

About tires sizes. I will reserve my rear 305/30 for Watkins Glenn and for very hot days for other tracks. I am loaded with S7000 275/35/19 for the rear and I really hope these tires will work. if not, it was a waste of money to get 8.

It is going to be an exciting season for sure.
My expectations are modest, I just want to break my best laptop time record at each of the four tracks I go to: NYST, LRP, PMP and WGI using my cheap tires I bought on sale at TireRack during the winter.

No new eBay tires this year (actually I do have a set but not sure I'll get to those 295/30/19)

Now I just have to sit back and wait until I get the first advice to buy 18" wheels from someone that did not read 45 pages :-)

[DRLane]

Ditch those carbon ceramics and get 18"s

[Vybz]

Bartledoo speaks the truth rhyary. Completely preventing the car from oversteering is not the solution, and I would say that properly being able to handle oversteer situations is truly invaluable for progressing as a driver.
Last year Bartledoo gave me the nickname maytag because I was spinning out so much on track . I haven't touched my car in 7 months due to school and my only real time to practice was on an iracing rig when I rarely had the free time.
I think I may have only had 10 total practice sessions on the rig, but my growth in car control was substantial. Not only did my time on the racing simulator give me confidence in my own abilities, but it'll most certainly make you a faster (and better) driver as well. Techniques like trail braking and throttle steering can be daunting when you're fearful of the rear stepping out, but once you grasp those skills, you will fully realize how obsolete a car setup for mainly understeer is.

[rhyary]

>> Bartledoo speaks the truth rhyary. Completely preventing the car from oversteering is not the solution, and I would say that properly being able to handle oversteer situations is truly invaluable for progressing as a driver.

I don't really get how is trying to solve an oversteering issue under a specific circumstances goes into I don't ever want to have oversteering, and then it meander into how useful it is to have a simulator?

What next, I should buy a McLaren to resolve my oversteering issue, which I don't have and not trying to prevent?

I was at PMP on all season tires. 265/35 on the front and 275/35 on the rear. I had plenty of understeering and plenty of oversteering depending on how fast my entry speed was, the type of corner, and how aggressive I was on the throttle.

I was at LRP and at the 3pm session put 265/35/19 on the REAR, and had 285/30/19 on the FRONT, and had no oversteering issue. This does not mean I did not have oversteering when I wanted to have oversteering. I did not have oversteering issue!


At times it does feel to me that either I don't explain the issue I am describing very well, or people comment on my posts without really reading my post carefully. Which I totally understand. My English is not stellar, and my posts are long.

But anyway, this is fun and I do appreciate the comments. I do feel that people are trying to help and this is wonderful.

[rhyary]

@Bartledoo
Don't give up on me.

[Bartledoo]

There is a difference between a car having oversteer issues and the driver having oversteer issues. It is well known that most occurrences of oversteer are in understeering cars with too much throttle and steering angle (or too much brake and steering angle).

You don’t know how to manage/control oversteer. We’ve been in this thread long enough to see that when oversteer occurs slightly you completely lose speed, although it’s rare because you’re generally late on throttle. Don’t forget that we have lots of video with data.

If you want to break through to new ground you need to learn to control oversteer/rotation of the car. Not drifting, but oversteer. Simple as that. You’re only properly loading the front tires of the car. If you learn how to load the rears properly it will be a game changer for you.

“What next, I should buy a McLaren to resolve my oversteering issue, which I don't have and not trying to prevent?” - this is a typical response, trying to make the suggestions sound ridiculous, which they aren’t.

P.S. i would totally let you use my sim if you were local.

[rhyary]

Picked up the car from Autocouture now on 800 front spring and 1100 rear spring. Up from 750 and 1000.

While feeling good driving home on the highway does not necessarily translate to a fast setup on the track, it perhaps give some indication.

Since my medium speed (0) and slow speed (1) are dialed to a minimum, it allows the car to be more dynamically using the springs on road compression. Those changes in the road that are not potholes and joints.

The feelings is that the car is more supported by the springs, rather then by the dampers. For good or bad, this is what I was after swapping springs.

The test will be a Lime Rock on Sat 4/16 with BMW CCA Connecticut. While I am not enjoying being the slowest guy in the advanced group, I think for comparison to PMP trackday two weeks ago I will keep the same all season tires.

Forecast is perfect for summer/track tires 55-57* but there is a chance for rain which will allow the all season to be somewhat useful.

I have another LRP day on Monday, and for that I anticipating bringing a faster setup (RR and RE-71R)

There are few more damper setups that I am going to adjust and try on my public road testing loop.

The Rebound is on 3 and the car does come up quicker on the new springs. It is not necessarily bad, but I am going to try +1 on the rebound. I will set all corner to 4, and if it feels good on the road loop, I'll use this as a starting point.

The medium speed is on 0. I am going to +1 for two reasons. One is OCD related. I don't like it to be not set to anything. The MS setting is very noticeable on every click. The MS per JRZ is designed for controlling the car mid turn when the sway bar is loaded. This is hard to check on the road, but I have two spots on my loop (one left and one right sweeper) that has a perfect road imperfections that induce that kind of up and down motion). The other reason is to bridge the HS and LS.

I am happy with HS on 12. However, with the stiffer spring it is less harsh on the road joints and pot holes. It just feel right. After testing the MS on 1, I will try HS down -2 to see if the three speeds settings are working better.

Lots of testing between now and Sat.

[rhyary]

Picked up two for $208/tire from Tire Rack.
these are $500 a tire and I couldn't say no.

305/30ZR-19 PIRELLI P ZERO CORSA SYSTEM 2018 PROD, ASIMMETRICO 2, N1 XL

I had a great experience on these at WGI last year so it is a known tire and size.

[rhyary]

The 800/1100 spring rate is a success.
car felt great.

Yesterday was still on all season tires so not fast.
was able to get below 65sec but mainly a slow pace on 65sec.

New to this year is the Zebolun aero and I have noticed that my top speed is slower. Will monitor this once I am on track tires.

The day started overcast but dry. Then drizzle, then torrential rain. This was a perfect day for the all season tires.

Tomorrow, Monday, forecast is for a dry date and the real test starts.

I will be on 295/30/19 RR on the rear and 265/35/19 RE-71R on the front.

I don't like this size combination, but this set is a left over from last year and not ready to be disposed.

[rhyary]

My first video for 2022.
I started the year experimenting with UHP All Seasons. All I can say is that UHP-AS are great for March weather at the NE. You typically leave the house at sub freezing temperatures. Half the day is below 40* and expect at least half day in the rain. The drive home os also nice.

But, while it is safe, it is not very satisfying.
I am not sure what I will do next year. Regardless, the set I had were fine and 265 on the front and 275 on the rear provided traction and balance.

For 4/18 the weather forecast was dry, cold in the morning and 50* in the PM.

I mounted RR 295/30/19 I had from last year with one trackday left on them, and On the front RE-71R from last year, but also used two sessions on the front and 4 sessions on the rear. So in short, not new tires but some life left on those

Headed to the track on slicks and 30* sub freezing.
I was rainy and shortly snowing the day before and I was contemplating remounting the UHP-AS.

I was eager to to try the Zebulon rear wing and front splitter, my 800 front spring and 1100 rear spring and the track tires had to stay.

The day was fabulous. I loved the feeling of this car now and all I wanted was to go faster and faster. In actuality I did a very consistent day on 62s but was able to break 62 only once.

Notes,
I had passengers in 3 out of 4 sessions and that 180lbs extra weight perhaps counted for something. The only session I was by myself was the first one and I was warming up and track was still below 40*

The car is slower 15-17mph on the straight compares to last year. Last year I was getting to 138-140mph on the main straight, and 112-114mpg on no-name.

This year I topped at 123mph and ~100mph

The easy thing to try would be to reduce the wing AOA from 3.5* to 2.5* and see how it feels and how fast it can go. I am not sure I want to give up how solid it feels coming into T-1 and through out T-7.

Regardless, it was a great day and my first this year of pushing it.

[rhyary]

Ryan from Zebulon shutdown the theory on wing angle.

So I reloaded the ESS tune and reset the calibration as the next best thing.

Will test shortly. Waiting on mounting new set of tires.

[Bartledoo]

Have you looked at the data on your exit speeds when your top speeds were higher? Also, were you short shifting back then too?

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

Have you looked at the data on your exit speeds when your top speeds were higher? Also, were you short shifting back then too?

Yes I did.
I can tell that something is off when accelerating in 4th gear. The best way to describe it is as if my stock X-pipe is still on, stifling the supercharger, but I do have the akra back on.

The only somewhat vague explanation is that I loaded the ESS tune when the stock X-pipe was still on. Then ACM swapped in the Akra X-pipe and I did not loaded the tune again. I suppose that it would be possible that the tune adapted to the Stock X pipe and never readapted to the X-pipe.

This morning I reloaded ESS and cleared adaptation.

Once I get the 305/30/19 V720 mounted on the rear and the 265/35/19 RE-71R mounted on the front, will see if I can tell a difference on the street.

My next day is 4/30 at LRP again and I won't be able to say for sure that anything is fixed.

[tsk94]

Aint no way a wing is losing you that much top speed..! Or would a passenger in combo with it.

[rhyary]

I can't wait to give it a try
I had the 275/35/19 V720 on the rear and liked it.
I hope I like the 305/30/19 even more.

The V720 305/30 and the RR 295/30 tread width are the same 11".

However the V720 tire width is more @12.3" and the diameter is taller than the RR @ 26.3".

The diameter matches the front 265/35/19 better

[rhyary]

Yesterday I had great day at LRP.
I was driving better and my minimum speed was better that last year.

I managed 61.5sec compare to 60.37 PB last year.

Alas I was 10mph slower on any acceleration.

And today I found out why. My ESS intake manifold lifted in the rear of the engine and basically I was running no boost with the penalty of the extra weight.

This will be addressed tomorrow at the Little Speed Shop at The Glen.

I am heading out to WGI tonight, on a trailer, and made an 8am appointment for them to push it back down.

[MaX PL]

I'm signed up for WGI too but don't think I'll be making the 4 hour trip based on the forecast.

Hopefully you luck out and the weather changes.