Track days: M3 or Camaro SS 1LE?

[GT3fan]

I originally bought my 6mt m3 with the intention of using it as a daily driver. However, I purchased a mkVII gti w/ DSG instead for my daily commute.

Now the m3 collects dust only accruing 1000 miles the past 18 months, so I am now considering using it for track days.

This is where the Camaro SS 1LE comes in. I just read a motor tend article and it appears this mid-tier Camaro is an absolute beast on the track. In fact, it was one of the quickest cars they have ever tested at Willow Springs.

If HPDE type of events is my focus for this car, is there any reason to keep the M3 versus a new Camaro SS? I just want to have the most fun possible on the track and occasional backroads too. The cost of maintenance and repairs is important too. I’ve never driven one, but plan to very soon. I think you can buy a new one for about $40k, which sounds like a bargain for what you get.

It appears this new Camaro is ready for the track straight from the factory, but the M3 will require some upgrades to be reliable on the track days. If I decide to track the M3, rod bearings will be a must among improving the brakes and suspension. Also the Camaro’s Recaro seats appear to be an upgrade over our modestly supportive seats. What's it cost to prep an m3 with upgraded brakes, suspension, lightweight wheels, performance seat and RB's? <$10k?

Anyone here aggressively driven a 1LE Camaro? Is the Camaro the better choice for a track day toy?

[Montaver]

Just read that Motortrend review, SS 1LE sounds like mega performance at entry level prices.

The M3 will need some upgrades for the track if your serious, and won't have a warranty. Depends how long you have had it for, but if you have only done 1k miles in a year I would try something new.

First port of call should be a test drive of the Camaro...

[dparm]

The SS 1LE is an amazing bargain and will definitely outrun an M3 on the track.

If you can get past the mediocre interior and poor visibility, it's hard to find a more capable brand new car for that kind of money (~$45,000). I have run with some of them at the track and am always impressed with their performance.

[spazzyfry123]

Originally Posted by dparm

The SS 1LE is an amazing bargain and will definitely outrun an M3 on the track.

If you can get past the mediocre interior and poor visibility, it's hard to find a more capable brand new car for that kind of money (~$45,000).

I've had some old 4th Gen Camaro SS's (obviously on a different, lower tier than the new 1LE) and absolutely loved them for the muscle car they were. But $45k brand new for that?! Having personally done no research whatsoever on pricing, with what is offered with those I had honestly expected that price point to be about 20% higher. Bargain indeed!

I will say that it feels like a big car. The long nose does that to me (fairway length dash on the 4th gens) as I'm sure you're completely aware with the 'Vette. But after driving it for a little bit, the size seems to disappear. It's hard to describe until you actually drive one.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by spazzyfry123

I've had some old 4th Gen Camaro SS's (obviously on a different, lower tier than the new 1LE) and absolutely loved them for the muscle car they were. But $45k brand new for that?! Having personally done no research whatsoever on pricing, with what is offered with those I had honestly expected that price point to be about 20% higher. Bargain indeed!

I will say that it feels like a big car. The long nose does that to me (fairway length dash on the 4th gens) as I'm sure you're completely aware with the 'Vette. But after driving it for a little bit, the size seems to disappear. It's hard to describe until you actually drive one.

The new Camaros are on the Alpha platform which is actually much smaller than the previous ones. Yes, they still look big, but they dropped a considerable amount of weight.

Visibility isn't really any worse than a Mustang or Challenger -- not that those are stellar, either.

[GT3fan]

Originally Posted by dparm

The SS 1LE is an amazing bargain and will definitely outrun an M3 on the track.

If you can get past the mediocre interior and poor visibility, it's hard to find a more capable brand new car for that kind of money (~$45,000). I have run with some of them at the track and am always impressed with their performance.

I will have to check out the interior quality in person, but not a big deal for me. The interior is definitely a departure from the conservative teutonic designs. Fun to drive and reliability are much higher on my list.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by AMG2M3

I will have to check out the interior quality in person, but not a big deal for me. The interior is definitely a departure from the conservative teutonic designs. Fun to drive and reliability are much higher on my list.

The interior is typical GM quality so it's nothing amazing. My gripe was more about ergonomics and overall usability. The Mustang interior is about the same quality but is more restrained and user-friendly.

[thkfast]

I was cross shopping SS 1LEs before I bought my current E92 M3. I recently owned a 2014 Camaro SS/RS LS3 6 speed WHICH I HATED. Cheap cheap cheap. Yes it was a Gen 5 Camaro, but puke. I would describe it as a BIG heavy clunker with tank-like visibility, no interior room, less than expected power, terrible personal connection / driving experience and just nothing special. And that's why I was giving new consideration to a Gen 6 SS 1LE - smaller, lighter, 455 hp, Recaro seats, huge Brembos...again, on paper, these cars appear to be a PERFORMANCE BARGAIN for $45K. The Chevy dealership wouldn't let me test drive one because they don't like to put test miles on them, you know.

You'll have to drive one and unless you ABSOLUTELY LOVE EVERYTHING about the driving experience, I'd stick with any BMW - they're magical!

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by dparm

The new Camaros are on the Alpha platform which is actually much smaller than the previous ones. Yes, they still look big, but they dropped a considerable amount of weight.

Visibility isn't really any worse than a Mustang or Challenger -- not that those are stellar, either.

Uh, the rear visibility on the Camaro is atrocious. Visibility in the Mustang is actually very good. Not sure when the last time you sat in both cars were.

[nick3753]

You might want to post this under the "Track" section. You will probably get more experienced responses.

[SYT_Shadow]

The Camaro SS/1LE is likely a faster car with the same driver for the track, however, the E92 M3 is plenty fast enough to run within the top 5-10 cars of the fastest PCA run group with minimal mods.

Unless you are in the red or black run groups at PCA it's a moot point. You could drive the Millenium Falcon and still be slow. The point is to learn how to drive well on the track and what you have now is more than capable.

I'm a big proponent of changing rod bearings on these cars, however, don't ignore that dogbone did over 100 track days in his supercharged E90 on stock rod bearings.
The failures we've seen on RBs have been quite random. I've seen zero evidence tying RB failure in these cars to track use.

The E9X can be tracked hard with just PFC DD front rotors, pads and fluid. I've seen a car do 2:11 at WGI like this and 2:11 is fast when it's a real time vs people's fantasy BS time.
Then you add some camber plates, leave the stock suspension alone and add Apex wheels if you want.

If you track the SS/1LE heavily you will have to invest in camber plates, I'm sure you'll need upgraded rotors and wider wheels, and beyond that always remember the LT4(?) is not some kind of paragon of reliability. C&D had an E9X in their long term fleet with zero issues. I recall they blew up two LT4's in the Corvettes they had long term.

[kyrix1st]

I personally don’t like forced induction engine. Often times owners will neglect warm up/cool down needed for the superchargers/turbochargers and they need periodic maintenance unlike NA engine. I don’t understand why you would “downgrade” to a potentially less reliable car and spend 45K+ making it a track car where you can throw in a coilover, AP racing, vibra tech mounts and drive the hell out of it for less than 7 grand. Just make sure you change oil every 1-2 track days. Ester oils tend to go out fast due to hydrolysis.

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

The Camaro SS/1LE is likely a faster car with the same driver for the track, however, the E92 M3 is plenty fast enough to run within the top 5-10 cars of the fastest PCA run group with minimal mods.

Unless you are in the red or black run groups at PCA it's a moot point. You could drive the Millenium Falcon and still be slow. The point is to learn how to drive well on the track and what you have now is more than capable.

I'm a big proponent of changing rod bearings on these cars, however, don't ignore that dogbone did over 100 track days in his supercharged E90 on stock rod bearings.
The failures we've seen on RBs have been quite random. I've seen zero evidence tying RB failure in these cars to track use.

The E9X can be tracked hard with just PFC DD front rotors, pads and fluid. I've seen a car do 2:11 at WGI like this and 2:11 is fast when it's a real time vs people's fantasy BS time.
Then you add some camber plates, leave the stock suspension alone and add Apex wheels if you want.

If you track the SS/1LE heavily you will have to invest in camber plates, I'm sure you'll need upgraded rotors and wider wheels, and beyond that always remember the LT4(?) is not some kind of paragon of reliability. C&D had an E9X in their long term fleet with zero issues. I recall they blew up two LT4's in the Corvettes they had long term.

Totally agree. People focus too much on what's the fastest factory car driven by a pro driver to determine what's the best track car, but that doesn't really matter once you are at the track. Your driving skills will be the biggest factor and the more experienced drivers who spend a lot of time at the track will ultimately want a lighter car with cheaper consumables. As the amazing as the performance is on the Camaro's, they are very heavy cars (as is my GT350) and I'd rather have something far lighter for track duty. My 225whp S2K is so much more fun to drive on track than my GT350 and part of that reason is because it's 1000lbs lighter.

On a side note, Bearing issues may be unrelated to tracking the car, but BMW will for sure try to pin it on track usage if your motor fails. They did when my motor failed. They researched my HPDE videos on Youtube, called it "racing" and denied my warranty claim (though I was able to get them to replace the motor after a fight).

[GT3fan]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

The Camaro SS/1LE is likely a faster car with the same driver for the track, however, the E92 M3 is plenty fast enough to run within the top 5-10 cars of the fastest PCA run group with minimal mods.

Unless you are in the red or black run groups at PCA it's a moot point. You could drive the Millenium Falcon and still be slow. The point is to learn how to drive well on the track and what you have now is more than capable.

I'm a big proponent of changing rod bearings on these cars, however, don't ignore that dogbone did over 100 track days in his supercharged E90 on stock rod bearings.
The failures we've seen on RBs have been quite random. I've seen zero evidence tying RB failure in these cars to track use.

The E9X can be tracked hard with just PFC DD front rotors, pads and fluid. I've seen a car do 2:11 at WGI like this and 2:11 is fast when it's a real time vs people's fantasy BS time.
Then you add some camber plates, leave the stock suspension alone and add Apex wheels if you want.

If you track the SS/1LE heavily you will have to invest in camber plates, I'm sure you'll need upgraded rotors and wider wheels, and beyond that always remember the LT4(?) is not some kind of paragon of reliability. C&D had an E9X in their long term fleet with zero issues. I recall they blew up two LT4's in the Corvettes they had long term.

Thanks for the info guys!

I am far from an expert, but have probably a dozen track days under my belt.

I recently purchased a set of square 18” Apex wheels and currently researching coilover suspensions to replace the EDC to improve my car’s handling. I definitely would prefer the easy route of keeping my car versus the time consuming selling process.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by AMG2M3

Thanks for the info guys!

I am far from an expert, but have probably a dozen track days under my belt.

I recently purchased a set of square 18” Apex wheels and currently researching coilover suspensions to replace the EDC to improve my car’s handling. I definitely would prefer the easy route of keeping my car versus the time consuming selling process.

Even with stock suspension and camber plates these cars are very fast. People laugh at the stock suspension but it's quite capable

Personally I wouldn't touch the stock suspension at this point. Maybe get a front BBK (BW sells the front PFC kit for 3k sometimes which is incredible value)

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by radiantm3

On a side note, Bearing issues may be unrelated to tracking the car, but BMW will for sure try to pin it on track usage if your motor fails. They did when my motor failed. They researched my HPDE videos on Youtube, called it "racing" and decided my warranty claim (though I was able to get them to replace the motor after a fight).

Agreed

The SA told me my car would not be covered if I blew the engine because of the race seats, etc etc. I ended up talking to the GM of the dealership and they confirmed everything was covered as long as it was a HPDE

I don't post any vids on the forum or youtube to make identifying my car more difficult in these situations... I'm sorry you had an ordeal

[dparm]

Originally Posted by radiantm3

Uh, the rear visibility on the Camaro is atrocious. Visibility in the Mustang is actually very good. Not sure when the last time you sat in both cars were.

I actually have not sat in the Alpha-platform Camaro for a while, to be honest.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

If you track the SS/1LE heavily you will have to invest in camber plates, I'm sure you'll need upgraded rotors and wider wheels, and beyond that always remember the LT4(?) is not some kind of paragon of reliability. C&D had an E9X in their long term fleet with zero issues. I recall they blew up two LT4's in the Corvettes they had long term.

The stock Camaro SS 1LE brakes are huge and just fine. Obviously you want better pads but they have plenty of endurance. I have talked to multiple SS 1LE guys at track days and none of them have complained about brakes, even during 30-minute sessions. My Corvette has the same brakes & horsepower but is 300 pounds lighter -- no issues either.

Wheels are pretty wide already but the aftermarket selection isn't huge due to the big brakes. I know Forgestar makes some 18x11, 18x13, and 19s that will clear but get ready to shell out $1000/wheel.

As for the LT1 engine reliability, the motor issues C&D had were in very early production cars and I think it was due to some oil filter housing problem (metal shavings entered the oil IIRC) that has since been fixed. The LT1 is pretty stout. (BTW, the LT4 is the Z06/ZL1 engine which suffers from heat soak under track use)

[dmk08]

I rented a 16 SS for 2 weeks when my wife and I visited Northern California last year. I owned an M4 at the time and this was when I started to realize visceral feel > torquey mid range. I loved the SS and actually got flamed on the M4 forums for saying so.

Is the 1LE faster than a GT350? I only ask because with the way those are descending in price $45k wont be long off for one especially with the GT500 coming out.

[New2Roundel]

If this is just HPDEs, it really doesn't matter which is faster around the track. I mean, I was on track in my corrado a couple years back and there was someone with a potentially brand new previous gen Camaro 1LE. I literally lapped that car. Was it because my car is a track monster devouring anything in its way? Is it because I'm actually a top running F1 driver in real life and have made skills? Neither. The driver of that car likely never did a track day before. He was literally puttering around the course. It was almost dangerous how slow this person was moving.

So to me, the best HPDE car is one that won't overheat over a 20-30 mins track session. A car that only needs track pads for the brakes to be up to snuff for a track session. Something that doesn't embarrass itself in a power or handling perspective. The 1LE is without a doubt the faster car around a track (stock for stock)--it has much bigger tires, much stickier tires, more power, and a chassis at least as good as what in the M3. However, it's still a pony car. Which means the dimensions and visibility are not as ideal, IMO, as our cars. I feel a lot more confident in what's going on with the e9X than I did in my '12 Mustang. I haven't sat in a modern camaro that didn't give me the same feeling as in my old mustang. Nothing wrong with the camaro at all---it's a very serious machine, but frankly, I just have no interest in one. For me, it's all about feel and confidence from behind the wheel and the e9X is perfect, at least for me.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by dmk08

Is the 1LE faster than a GT350? I only ask because with the way those are descending in price $45k wont be long off for one especially with the GT500 coming out.

I've never seen a direct head-to-head, but some quick googling indicates that you have to get a GT350R (with the carbon wheels and PSC2 tires) to simply MATCH the SS 1LE time at Big Willow. Wow!

Randy Pobst was able to do Big Willow in 1:28.29 with an SS 1LE, FWIW. That's only about a second slower than a McLaren 570S or 911 Turbo S.


But as others have said, there's a lot more to a car than turning fast lap times or having the most horsepower. It's going to come down to the intangibles and gut feeling when you drive it. When your test drive is over, are you sad? Do you find yourself thinking about the car again later on? If so, buy it. That's how my E90 felt after I drove it, and it's how my Corvette felt too. You should not have to talk yourself into it.

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by dmk08

I rented a 16 SS for 2 weeks when my wife and I visited Northern California last year. I owned an M4 at the time and this was when I started to realize visceral feel > torquey mid range. I loved the SS and actually got flamed on the M4 forums for saying so.

Is the 1LE faster than a GT350? I only ask because with the way those are descending in price $45k wont be long off for one especially with the GT500 coming out.

1LE is probably on better tires so I wouldn't doubt the SS 1LE is faster around the track than a normal GT350 and probably similar to the R. But as dparm said, there's a lot more to how good a car is than the lap time. I could have picked up an SS, or ZL1 (in standard or 1LE variants), but I don't care for how those cars make power. The GT350 is just filled with more drama and excitement when you drive it hard. The power band is so linear that it's not scary to drive with all the nannies off. That's not to say that I think the Camaro's are bad cars. Just a totally different driving experience and personal preference should dictate what you think is better, not what has a better lap time. Some people would rather drive a 911 Turbo S. I'll take the GT3 every time.