F80 or E90...

[akkando]

Originally Posted by wfdeacon88

I mean, that's an extremely misleading statement based on the dozens and dozens of articles and stories all over the place.... nice try!

"For those of you who drive your BMWs hard, take them to the track, or have bolt-on performance products and software upgrades, the crank hub design can spell a near-certain demise for your engine."
https://movementmotorsports.com/2019...ing-time-bomb/

It's not a very common problem. I'm sure rod bearings being a more likely problem on a 100k car than crank hub on 100k f8x.

[Eja144]

Why is it so difficult for some people to accept that there are things to value in a driving experience beyond raw power? It's a personal thing. I've owned turbo cars and NA cars and they behave so differently with how they put power down. Plenty to love about both platforms but when it comes to the S65, you have a virtually extinct power plant with rare characteristics you'll almost certainly never see in a sub-$150k vehicle again, whereas fast turbo 6's are quite literally EVERYWHERE. That's the allure. It's not just about quarter mile times.

[pbonsalb]

Most people do most of their driving on fairly straight public roads. I know we all like to think of ourselves as race car drivers on a track but the reality of how we use our cars is different. Same goes for auto/dct versus manual transmissions. If you want to be a purist, buy a 1970 2002 with stick shift, carbs, no traction control and even roll up windows. You will feel everything.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

Most people do most of their driving on fairly straight public roads. I know we all like to think of ourselves as race car drivers on a track but the reality of how we use our cars is different. Same goes for auto/dct versus manual transmissions. If you want to be a purist, buy a 1970 2002 with stick shift, carbs, no traction control and even roll up windows. You will feel everything.

..... everything has its time. My E90M does the same and a bit compared to the 70s cars.

[EricSMG]

First, a few notes:

- As for 'tech', that's fool's gold. The F8X offers nothing tangible above the E9X. They are more/less identical in the real world, assuming the E90 has the EPS (the F80 stereo is killer)
- As for 'power', the F8X needs no more than stock, so tuning it should not be part of this discussion in my opinion. I think much more power would detract from the car as it's borderline too fast stock.
- As for interiors, I'd rate them pretty close with maybe a slight nod to the E90. The F80 seats are WAY WAY better/cooler but other than that I slightly prefer the older interior in most ways. It seems to be of slightly higher quality and I prefer the minimalist styling over the flashy F80.
- As for powerbands, the F80 has a working range of 3k-7k and the E90 has a working range of 6k-8.4k. And by working range I mean optimum performance. The S65 is, in reality, much wider but it doesn't "come on" until 6k. The S55 is very responsive below 3k but it's not in boost and so it feels like an S54, but by 3k it's fully boosted and rips HARD to 7k where it falls off a cliff. The S55, as noted by Shadow, is NOT a low-rpm torque monster. It's a midrange killer which makes it ideal for street driving.

Real world input:

As an out-of-the-box package (bone stock) the F8X is a far more thrilling car to drive in most situations. That's day in and day out, normal life. It's far more hardcore in every way. Rigid chassis, ultra precise steering and suspension, super fast. Looks much much more aggressive (note that I didn't say better even though I think it's better looking). It is a car that needs nothing while the E9X needs power mods to be thrilling in the real world. If I were to sum up the F80 it would be "power with ultimate control".

So - if you want the best out of the box package and value speed and precision over feel/character, the F8X is hands down the better car by a HUGE margin.

Now, that said, after owning a couple F8Xs I do miss certain aspects of the E9X:

- Steering feedback/connection to road (it's less precise but feels better)
- Engine sound (the S55 sounds good inside the cabin, but nothing like the S65)
- Ride quality (the F8X is significantly more harsh/less refined)

And so I'm considering jumping back into an E9X and immediately going FBO. But I am not deluding myself - I know it's a big step down objectivity... which is a risk since I LOVE to drive fast all of the time and the F80 really delivers in that aspect (E90 is also great). And, I'm also extremely attracted to it - it's such a pimp daddy car in the looks department (E90 is also very sexy).

[New2Roundel]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

First, a few notes:

- As for 'tech', that's fool's gold. The F8X offers nothing tangible above the E9X. They are more/less identical in the real world, assuming the E90 has the EPS (the F80 stereo is killer)
- As for 'power', the F8X needs no more than stock, so tuning it should not be part of this discussion in my opinion. I think much more power would detract from the car as it's borderline too fast stock.
- As for interiors, I'd rate them pretty close with maybe a slight nod to the E90. The F80 seats are WAY WAY better/cooler but other than that I slightly prefer the older interior in most ways. It seems to be of slightly higher quality and I prefer the minimalist styling over the flashy F80.

I'm in general agreement with what you've written above. But that's where it generally ends for me.

- The S65 is, in reality, much wider but it doesn't "come on" until 6k. The S55 is very responsive below 3k but it's not in boost and so it feels like an S54, but by 3k it's fully boosted and rips HARD to 7k where it falls off a cliff. The S55, as noted by Shadow, is NOT a low-rpm torque monster. It's a midrange killer which makes it ideal for street driving.

There's no "coming on" in the S65 when it comes to real world driving. Peak torque on the s65 starts to plateau around 3500 rpms and it pretty flat until redline. Now, the sound of the car changes above 6k rpms, but I've never felt any additional torque (which is what you feel) above that point. I've had the F80 on track and compared with our cars, it's just got a lot more torque to deal with up until redline.

Real world input:

As an out-of-the-box package (bone stock) the F8X is a far more thrilling car to drive in most situations. That's day in and day out, normal life. It's far more hardcore in every way. Rigid chassis, ultra precise steering and suspension, super fast. Looks much much more aggressive (note that I didn't say better even though I think it's better looking). It is a car that needs nothing while the E9X needs power mods to be thrilling in the real world. If I were to sum up the F80 it would be "power with ultimate control".

There's nothing thrilling about any M3. They're pretty laid back actually. You have to throw them around to get some level of actual excitement. You seems to be referring to the greater and more accessible torque in the F80. But if you've actually driven an e9x M3 aggressively on a curvy road, the rear end can be very loose. Despite the lower torque, it's not at all hard to get the car sideways. There's absolutely no need for power mods to the S65. You bought the wrong car, IMO, if you think the S65 needs anything. There are faster and burlier cars, but it doesn't at all fit the character of the platform.

So - if you want the best out of the box package and value speed and precision over feel/character, the F8X is hands down the better car by a HUGE margin.

The reality is that stock for stock, the regular F80 isn't much faster than an e90 M. A couple tenths to 60 with equal transmissions. The F80 certainly feels much faster though given the massive torque bump. I will say this--I have a feeling that on a track, the F80 likely is a lot more buttoned down than the e9x. I have driven the F80 on track, but not my own car---yet.

- Ride quality (the F8X is significantly more harsh/less refined)

I hear this comment and I'm not sure I agree with it. Having said that, I've only driven an F80 on the track and on the street I've only driven an M2C (which I would think would have a worse ride vs the F8x cars). I never felt that the ride was noticeable worse when I got back into my car right after driving the newer M cars. I think BMW has maintained that great balance between performance and comfort. In contrast, I felt that the previous gen C63 had a terrible ride.

I know it's a big step down objectivity... which is a risk since I LOVE to drive fast all of the time and the F80 really delivers in that aspect (E90 is also great). And, I'm also extremely attracted to it - it's such a pimp daddy car in the looks department (E90 is also very sexy).

If you think it's such a big step down, why would you want to go back? I traded in a 2012 Mustang GT for my e92. The mustang is a big step backwards on several levels. No way I could go back to that car--despite how much I loved the engine. Yuck. Given what you've written, seems like a C7 Z06 would be more your speed. Or if you don't care about having an automatic---an M5 or CTS-V. So much more potential in these options than any of the M3s you're talking about.

[pbonsalb]

0-60 is not the best measurement of performance on traction limited rwd cars. Compare the quarter mile traps and the F80 walks away from the E92. That is the typical highway pull. I would not want my E90 without a tune and the bolt on mods. The extra 15% power makes the difference to me between boring and acceptable. I’d like even more but will probably save that mod money to put towards a different car, maybe a 911 Turbo or E63 AMG or a new M5 once they are in the used market and prices drop.

[shu5892001]

I moved from E90 M3 to a GS-F, I test drove a bunch of cars and have a buddy that has a FBO F80. The F80 did nothing for me, and to this day I still miss my 6MT E90. I plan to pick up a good example in a year or two. I know it makes no sense to have 2 NA V8 Sedans, but that will tell you how much I need the E90 lol. It's the intangibles, the exotic feel of the motor, the subtle yet very aggressive bulldog stance, the rarity of the 4 door and etc, the old school BMW gauges... I would set aside 5k in the bank for major maintenance though.

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by New2Roundel

I'm in general agreement with what you've written above. But that's where it generally ends for me.


There's no "coming on" in the S65 when it comes to real world driving. Peak torque on the s65 starts to plateau around 3500 rpms and it pretty flat until redline. Now, the sound of the car changes above 6k rpms, but I've never felt any additional torque (which is what you feel) above that point. I've had the F80 on track and compared with our cars, it's just got a lot more torque to deal with up until redline.
There's nothing thrilling about any M3. They're pretty laid back actually. You have to throw them around to get some level of actual excitement. You seems to be referring to the greater and more accessible torque in the F80. But if you've actually driven an e9x M3 aggressively on a curvy road, the rear end can be very loose. Despite the lower torque, it's not at all hard to get the car sideways. There's absolutely no need for power mods to the S65. You bought the wrong car, IMO, if you think the S65 needs anything. There are faster and burlier cars, but it doesn't at all fit the character of the platform.

The reality is that stock for stock, the regular F80 isn't much faster than an e90 M. A couple tenths to 60 with equal transmissions. The F80 certainly feels much faster though given the massive torque bump. I will say this--I have a feeling that on a track, the F80 likely is a lot more buttoned down than the e9x. I have driven the F80 on track, but not my own car---yet.

I hear this comment and I'm not sure I agree with it. Having said that, I've only driven an F80 on the track and on the street I've only driven an M2C (which I would think would have a worse ride vs the F8x cars). I never felt that the ride was noticeable worse when I got back into my car right after driving the newer M cars. I think BMW has maintained that great balance between performance and comfort. In contrast, I felt that the previous gen C63 had a terrible ride.


If you think it's such a big step down, why would you want to go back? I traded in a 2012 Mustang GT for my e92. The mustang is a big step backwards on several levels. No way I could go back to that car--despite how much I loved the engine. Yuck. Given what you've written, seems like a C7 Z06 would be more your speed. Or if you don't care about having an automatic---an M5 or CTS-V. So much more potential in these options than any of the M3s you're talking about.

The F80 is on a completely different level speed wise compared to an E90, especially on track.

[New2Roundel]

Originally Posted by Montaver

The F80 is on a completely different level speed wise compared to an E90, especially on track.

I can't speak to the track, but on the street, no. Stock for stock, it's just not true. Faster doesn't mean "on another level". You sound confused regarding the difference between torque and horsepower.

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by New2Roundel

I can't speak to the track, but on the street, no. Stock for stock, it's just not true. Faster doesn't mean "on another level". You sound confused regarding the difference between torque and horsepower.

It is way faster in the midrange (3-6k rpm)... 1/4 throttle in the F80 will put football field lengths on normal traffic. To do that in the E90 takes effort (lots of throttle input and lots of rpm, not necessarily a bad thing but it's true). The F80 is much, much more powerful in any non-dragrace scenario, and thus covers ground a lot quicker. I owned both at the same time, no contest.

Further, 1/4 trap speeds tell us that the F80 is quite a bit more powerful (hp). The E90 is a fast car but it better have DCT as the 6MT is almost never in the powerband, which IS considered very narrow by almost everyone but you. No meaningful acceleration happens below 6k with a stock S65. That is to say, only fast if kept in the powerband and that is VERY hard to do in the real world and why an all out drag race doesn't accurately represent what the car is like day in and day out. You have to work, HARD, for speed in the E90, and if driven correctly it is quite fast.

That's not saying one is better than the other, but let's call it like it is. The F80 is a serious machine with serious big-boy power, all the time. The E90 is a notable step down the power ladder. The E90 and E46 are MUCH closer in speed/acceleration than the E90 and the F80. From a purely "in the driver's seat" perspective, the F80 is on a completely different level in the power department, because it's always big and always accessible. You hit the throttle and that fukker MOVES.

[ByeFelicia]

Yeah... i've had both. It's true. And if you don't think so. You're in denial.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

...The E90 and E46 are MUCH closer in speed/acceleration than the E90 and the F80. From a purely "in the driver's seat" perspective, the F80 is on a completely different level in the power department, because it's always big and always accessible. You hit the throttle and that fukker MOVES.

Isn't the delta between E46 and E90 and between E90 and F80 both ~1/2 second in quarter mile? Some tests would have the E90 and F80 closer than the E46 and E90 too.

The 1/4 throttle battle scenario is funny though. The F8X is faster, but it isn't even an 11 second car stock. You guys are acting like it's a supercar vs a civic. I feel like you should be arguing tuned vs tuned, because then the difference is another level.

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by New2Roundel

I can't speak to the track, but on the street, no. Stock for stock, it's just not true. Faster doesn't mean "on another level". You sound confused regarding the difference between torque and horsepower.

I'm not confused, I have shared the track with plenty of F8x based cars in my E90 M3. The combination of power, chassis, diff, means on like for like tires the F80 simply walks off. Thats just cooking F80's, if your talking CS or GTS variants there is no contest.

On the street the F80 has a way more flexible power band, the headline numbers don't tell the whole story. That's just the reality of turbo engines. Even my M2C which is artificially held back at the top end (above 5K) comes on like a sledge hammer in the mid range compared to the E90.

I'm not knocking the S65 here, infact on track is where it really shines as you can stay in the narrow peak power band. But the pace difference between the two is pretty marked no matter on street or track, and its not just down to the engines.

[M3R1]

Originally Posted by New2Roundel

There's no "coming on" in the S65 when it comes to real world driving. Peak torque on the s65 starts to plateau around 3500 rpms and it pretty flat until redline. Now, the sound of the car changes above 6k rpms, but I've never felt any additional torque (which is what you feel) above that point.

This is exactly what I felt when I test drove what I thought would be my next car. The car's power was so underwhelming that I walked away from a perfect spec, low mile example in my price range. The seller didn't really understand why I felt this way since it was likely the fastest car he had owned.

When comparing it to cars with more power and specifically more torque, the car really does not impress. I know this likely is not a popular perspective on this forum.

[Willem3]

I was thinking about to change my e90 to F80, after a long test drive I didn’t do it.
My e90 is stage 2 tuned (akra evo and evolve stage 2)

The power difference is not that big anymore, and is even harder to accept the turbo lag from the S55, if you have driven the the super responsive S65 with a tune.

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

Isn't the delta between E46 and E90 and between E90 and F80 both ~1/2 second in quarter mile? Some tests would have the E90 and F80 closer than the E46 and E90 too.

The 1/4 throttle battle scenario is funny though. The F8X is faster, but it isn't even an 11 second car stock. You guys are acting like it's a supercar vs a civic. I feel like you should be arguing tuned vs tuned, because then the difference is another level.

The E90 is a 110-114 mph car in the quarter. The F80 is a 116-122 mph car in the quarter. A good running E90 and a bad running F80 might be close, but a good running E90 and a good running F80 are far apart. 8 mph difference is huge. That’s a car length every second and a half. The F80 will walk away from the M3 like it’s standing still.

It seems like some of you guys don’t really drive your cars. The E90 wakes up around 5500-6000 rpm and pulls hard to redline. Try it some time. It’s fun. But like Eric writes, it’s a lot of work on a 6MT car to keep the S65 on boil. The DCT is the better trans. The F80 will feel powerful at lower rpm due to the turbo torque, so a 6MT will be responsive even in lazy driving without a lot of shifting. The DCT is still the better choice because it gives seamless power without the drop during shifts you get with the 6MT from going out of boost temporarily.

[14_deltaM3]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

The E90 is a 110-114 mph car in the quarter. The F80 is a 116-122 mph car in the quarter. A good running E90 and a bad running F80 might be close, but a good running E90 and a good running F80 are far apart. 8 mph difference is huge. That’s a car length every second and a half. The F80 will walk away from the M3 like it’s standing still.

It seems like some of you guys don’t really drive your cars. The E90 wakes up around 5500-6000 rpm and pulls hard to redline. Try it some time. It’s fun. But like Eric writes, it’s a lot of work on a 6MT car to keep the S65 on boil. The DCT is the better trans. The F80 will feel powerful at lower rpm due to the turbo torque, so a 6MT will be responsive even in lazy driving without a lot of shifting. The DCT is still the better choice because it gives seamless power without the drop during shifts you get with the 6MT from going out of boost temporarily.

This is right.

Having said that, and having regard to everyone’s own tastes, the f80’s power is really only a strength if one values more outright speed and torque over driving enjoyment and character. While no one can doubt the engineering prowess of the s55, it is clearly more of an appliance for speed than a celebration of all that is racing/fun.

Considering we are talking about 3600 pound coupe/sedans, It’s not very sensical to be talking about them as if the bleeding edge of performance matters. Aside from the fact that, outside of a track or some occasional drag racing, the outright performance delta is meangingless day to day, I actually consider the low down torque and loss of character to be a huge drag on this type of car. While I recognize the torque characteristics provide huge flexibility benefit on road, the accessibility of the performance, and removal of any need to rev it out, stands at odds with M divisions original mission. Bmws own admission at the f80 launch was that the engine change was primarily motivated by emissions, consumption and matching AMG rather than an intrinsic desire within bmw.

In the end, if 8mph trap speed is what determines which car you buy, you’ve already made the wrong choice in narrowing it down to these two. All that said, there are MANY good reasons to choose an f80 over an e90 aside from speed.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

That's not saying one is better than the other, but let's call it like it is. The F80 is a serious machine with serious big-boy power, all the time. The E90 is a notable step down the power ladder. The E90 and E46 are MUCH closer in speed/acceleration than the E90 and the F80. From a purely "in the driver's seat" perspective, the F80 is on a completely different level in the power department, because it's always big and always accessible. You hit the throttle and that fukker MOVES.

Except when you're doing 80 on the highway in the F80 CS and go WOT to pass someone. Nothing happens. Eventually it starts boosting but you're better off dropping two gears.
On the E9X I don't drop any gears.

I do wonder what the trap speed difference is between the E9X 6MT and the F8X 6MT, as the F8X loses boost between shifts whereas the E9X does not

I disagree the E46 and E9x are closer than the E9x and F8x. I've tracked all 3 at the same tracks, the E46 to E9X is 6 seconds at the Glen is both cars are almost stock. The E9X to a F80 CS is two or three

[pbonsalb]

I don’t think the E90 has stunning acceleration from 80 in 6th gear. If my memory is right, that is around 3500 rpm. That is lazy driving to me and is the way I usually drive, but if I wanted real acceleration, I would drop 2 gears and if I was racing, I would drop 3. I don’t have much F80 experience, but if it is doing close to 3000 at 80, the turbos should spool pretty quickly. Both cars do
much better with the DCT for obvious reasons. It’s the better trans and my next car will be DCT or PDK or auto.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I don’t think the E90 has stunning acceleration from 80 in 6th gear. If my memory is right, that is around 3500 rpm. That is lazy driving to me and is the way I usually drive, but if I wanted real acceleration, I would drop 2 gears and if I was racing, I would drop 3. I don’t have much F80 experience, but if it is doing close to 3000 at 80, the turbos should spool pretty quickly. Both cars do
much better with the DCT for obvious reasons. It’s the better trans and my next car will be DCT or PDK or auto.

Yes, that's what I'm talking about, long highway slogs where I'm trying not to downshift 3 gears every time I want to overtake someone

[New2Roundel]

Originally Posted by Montaver

I'm not confused, I have shared the track with plenty of F8x based cars in my E90 M3. The combination of power, chassis, diff, means on like for like tires the F80 simply walks off. Thats just cooking F80's, if your talking CS or GTS variants there is no contest.

On the street the F80 has a way more flexible power band, the headline numbers don't tell the whole story. That's just the reality of turbo engines. Even my M2C which is artificially held back at the top end (above 5K) comes on like a sledge hammer in the mid range compared to the E90.

I'm not knocking the S65 here, infact on track is where it really shines as you can stay in the narrow peak power band. But the pace difference between the two is pretty marked no matter on street or track, and its not just down to the engines.

Sorry, we're going to have to disagree. A base F80 vs base e90M is a drivers race. You are definitely confused by torque vs power. The e90M feels much slower (I'm talking acceleration, not lap times), but the reality is that it's simply not much slower. It's far from other worldly. I can't speak to the track side of thing because I haven't been on track with my car---but I have in a F80.

Other worldly is an F82 GTS vs e9xM. Yeah, that will be vastly faster than any stock e9x M3.