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      08-03-2018, 12:25 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSY View Post
I would think you noticed her down on power no? Not in anyway that would help with diagnosis but out of pure curiosity looking back was just wondering?


Must have been lighting up a million codes! Guessing the thing would alternate from super lean to super rich in response to lean if things would sometimes flow and other times not get past the cats. Would be chasing dam tail around.

Were they ceramic cats? Imagine so if they crumbled. In my view I can almost assure ess ouy a cheap cat in knowing some background on ess. Not that it wasnt driven really hard but still its bothersome

At times the car was down on power and other times it felt full power. I guess it varied depending on how much exhaust flow there was in the bank 1 exhaust pipe/cat
When an E9X cannot pull on a Cayman S easily you know you have a problem.

There were multiple codes which is why it spent so long at different mechanics. We replaced:
-fuel pump control module
-spark plugs
-injector 1
-oil level sensor
-oil/air separators
-valve covers

One of the first two mechanics did a leakdown test incorrectly and said it was the piston rings of Cyl 7, so the blowby was ok. However, it didn't run well sporadically which made us think it was something else.

The cats are metal. When I say crumbled, I mean disassembled. Cats are like a honeycomb. A portion of the honeycomb detached itself from the rest and then the outer portion collapsed.
If they were not metal they would have melted the first hard weekend at the track.

This is a melted cat:
https://3c1703fe8d.site.internapcdn....ramicfoamc.jpg


Although my engine is no longer with us, I bear ESS no ill will. They continue to be my favorite tuner.
The xpipe withstood the equivalent of 5 years and at least 300 track days to break, well, things happen. They lasted a long time and if we were regular drivers they would have possibly lasted forever even with track use.

Our use case is very specific. I don't think there are many M3s run this hard for as long as this car goes.

Someone earlier said that the ESS Xpipe uses Magnaflow cats which cost ~$100. I can't confirm or deny as I don't know, however, if these indeed were Magnaflow cats then 99.9% people are absolutely wasting their money by buying anything else.


The engine's last track event was good though. It took out an instructor-driven 991 GT3 RS weistass package car. The guy didn't believe our car was an M3.

Last edited by SYT_Shadow; 08-03-2018 at 02:09 PM..
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      08-03-2018, 12:44 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSY View Post
I would think you noticed her down on power no? Not in anyway that would help with diagnosis but out of pure curiosity looking back was just wondering?


Must have been lighting up a million codes! Guessing the thing would alternate from super lean to super rich in response to lean if things would sometimes flow and other times not get past the cats. Would be chasing dam tail around.

Were they ceramic cats? Imagine so if they crumbled. In my view I can almost assure ess ouy a cheap cat in knowing some background on ess. Not that it wasnt driven really hard but still its bothersome
At times the car was down on power and other times it felt full power. I guess it varied depending on how much exhaust flow there was in the bank 1 exhaust pipe/cat

There were multiple codes which is why it spent so long at different mechanics. We replaced:
-fuel pump control module
-spark plugs
-injector 1
-oil level sensor
-oil/air separators
-valve covers

One of the first two mechanics did a leakdown test incorrectly and said it was the piston rings of Cyl 7, so the blowby was ok. However, it didn't run well sporadically which made us think it was something else.

The cats are metal. When I say crumbled, I mean disassembled. Cats are like a honeycomb. A portion of the honeycomb detached itself from the rest and then the outer portion collapsed.
If they were not metal they would have melted the first hard weekend at the track.

This is a melted cat:
https://3c1703fe8d.site.internapcdn....ramicfoamc.jpg


Although my engine is no longer with us, I bear ESS no ill will. They continue to be my favorite tuner.
The xpipe withstood the equivalent of 5 years and at least 300 track days to break, well, things happen. They lasted a long time and if we were regular drivers they would have possibly lasted forever even with track use.

Our use case is very specific. I don't think there are many M3s run this hard for as long as this car goes.

Someone earlier said that the ESS Xpipe uses Magnaflow cats which cost ~$100. I can't confirm or deny as I don't know, however, if these indeed were Magnaflow cats then 99.9% people are absolutely wasting their money by buying anything else.
I didn't say they are magnaflow for sure, but I think it is probable based on measurements and the price ESS charge for hfc x-pipe vs catless resonated one (which I have).
Anyway 300 track days is a lot for any cat. Personally I would run catless on such car, cats are for street compliance.

Do you have still these old cats? Would it be possible for you to take a picture of the core?
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      08-03-2018, 12:54 PM   #91
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sorry to hear.

My question is why would you track a car with cats inplace? Litterally making the motor work harder at its highest level of stress constant high rpm long load. with it running sometimes good some times not does go along with clogged cats which likley has to do with heat as well... sucks hope to see you back at it.

someone her posted haing a block recently for sale. he is the guy with the built m5 on borg turbos. I'll try to find his name.
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      08-03-2018, 12:56 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strokemycocktus View Post
I didn't say they are magnaflow for sure, but I think it is probable based on measurements and the price ESS charge for hfc x-pipe vs catless resonated one (which I have).
Anyway 300 track days is a lot for any cat. Personally I would run catless on such car, cats are for street compliance.

Do you have still these old cats? Would it be possible for you to take a picture of the core?
It's fine, many others have made the assumption that it was a crappy cat. I don't think it was. If you look at an xpipe with HJS/GESI cats they state the warranty on the cats is two years

I really really dislike catless so I tried to avoid it as much as possible. I do have pics of the core that died

Failed core






Healthy core




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      08-03-2018, 12:57 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Properstyle View Post
sorry to hear.

My question is why would you track a car with cats inplace? Litterally making the motor work harder at its highest level of stress constant high rpm long load. with it running sometimes good some times not does go along with clogged cats which likley has to do with heat as well... sucks hope to see you back at it.

someone her posted haing a block recently for sale. he is the guy with the built m5 on borg turbos. I'll try to find his name.
Because the car is driven to/from the track and I dislike catless smell

To the point I got the BW LT stepped headers and still got their catted xpipe. That xpipe uses GESI cats though
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      08-03-2018, 01:00 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Because the car is driven to/from the track and I dislike catless smell

To the point I got the BW LT stepped headers and still got their catted xpipe. That xpipe uses GESI cats though
Catless exhausts are truly terrible. And you are the first person on here to have a failure of this nature so I can't blame you for not thinking this would ever be an issue.
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      08-03-2018, 01:08 PM   #95
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Yeah, catless makes me dislike driving cars. And, plenty of free flowing cats place virtually no additional load on the engine.

Maybe get HJS race cats next time...
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      08-03-2018, 01:10 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iyzmi View Post
Catless exhausts are truly terrible. And you are the first person on here to have a failure of this nature so I can't blame you for not thinking this would ever be an issue.
Think that is very much so dependant exhuast design. I have a full catless aa system on a blower m3 and have had passangers even make the comment they were surpised they didn't smell fuel. drive most of the time windows down.

That said regardless of not likeing a smell you still were making the motor work so hard. putting headers and then running cats you still bottled neck the system. a factory header no cat car would breath better.

vs when my wifes is300 was catless the smell was in the car like no other.
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      08-03-2018, 01:29 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Properstyle View Post
Think that is very much so dependant exhuast design. I have a full catless aa system on a blower m3 and have had passangers even make the comment they were surpised they didn't smell fuel. drive most of the time windows down.

That said regardless of not likeing a smell you still were making the motor work so hard. putting headers and then running cats you still bottled neck the system. a factory header no cat car would breath better.

vs when my wifes is300 was catless the smell was in the car like no other.
to avoid confusion:

The car had stock headers and the HFC xpipe for all the track events

Before blowing it got the BW LT headers and a catless xpipe for the dyno portion where the car eventually car
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      08-03-2018, 01:31 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
At times the car was down on power and other times it felt full power. I guess it varied depending on how much exhaust flow there was in the bank 1 exhaust pipe/cat

There were multiple codes which is why it spent so long at different mechanics. We replaced:
-fuel pump control module
-spark plugs
-injector 1
-oil level sensor
-oil/air separators
-valve covers

One of the first two mechanics did a leakdown test incorrectly and said it was the piston rings of Cyl 7, so the blowby was ok. However, it didn't run well sporadically which made us think it was something else.

The cats are metal. When I say crumbled, I mean disassembled. Cats are like a honeycomb. A portion of the honeycomb detached itself from the rest and then the outer portion collapsed.
If they were not metal they would have melted the first hard weekend at the track.

This is a melted cat:
https://3c1703fe8d.site.internapcdn....ramicfoamc.jpg


Although my engine is no longer with us, I bear ESS no ill will. They continue to be my favorite tuner.
The xpipe withstood the equivalent of 5 years and at least 300 track days to break, well, things happen. They lasted a long time and if we were regular drivers they would have possibly lasted forever even with track use.

Our use case is very specific. I don't think there are many M3s run this hard for as long as this car goes.

Someone earlier said that the ESS Xpipe uses Magnaflow cats which cost ~$100. I can't confirm or deny as I don't know, however, if these indeed were Magnaflow cats then 99.9% people are absolutely wasting their money by buying anything else.


The engine's last track event was good though. It took out an instructor-driven 991 GT3 RS weistass package car. The guy didn't believe our car was an M3.
To be honest, Cat's are often the most forgotten thing to check in this day and age, no thanks to OBD, and many technicians rely on this to know if a cat is bad or not. theres' really only 3 reasons for a cat to go out.

*Missfires/excessive unburned fuel causing them to overheat and break.

*Manufacturer Defect causing them to prematurely fail

*Improper cat type/size/location causing premature failure

The problem with this cat is either:
a) the tune didn't notify him of the failure due to cel suppresion
b) the cat was after the rear oxygen sensor anyways, so the DME would not have been able to measure and notify shadow/technician of the failure anyways, so the mechanics never looked at it.
c) you have either an excessively rich tune, had a misfire you didn't notice causing damage and it just kept getting worse, slowly causing running issues (as you stated) and never being noticed due to either a) or b).

I've seen cats so bad a car won't run. IF you do a compression test it'll show zero or near zero because of a completely clogged cart. (i.e, if no air can escape, no air can enter which would prevent compression from building.
It's funny, because I've had engines not run from a bad cat, and you take out the primary oxygen sensor, there'd be JUST enough exhaust flow for the engine to start.. Probably the reason the valve stem seals blew, i'm curious if it was the exhaust side or he intake side of the seals that went.

Either way, i'm in no way blaming any one company, nor faulting, blaming, or anything of the sort to shadow or his technicians. More of just rambling with random info.

either way, sorry to head about he motor.
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      08-03-2018, 01:36 PM   #99
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Lucky it wasnt OB track at 150mph I guess is one way to look at it! I'm sure those headers will be beautiful!
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      08-03-2018, 01:36 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C-los View Post
The problem with this cat is either:
a) the tune didn't notify him of the failure due to cel suppresion
Wouldn't excess unburned fuel cool the cat?

E.g. when the EGT sensor detects the exhaust gas is getting too hot, the ECU causes the car to run richer, to cool the cats and extend their life.
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      08-03-2018, 01:48 PM   #101
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ESS switched their catalyst on their xpipe this year. I bought a new supercharger through them back in January and their xpipes were not available for sale because they were going through a redesign and changing catalyst manufacturer to a "high end Canadian cat" I believe. I will double check my email to confirm the Canadian part.

Edit- In my email with AJ from ESS on Feb 18th he said "the new xpipe will have even higher build quality and better cats". The Canadian part is something I believe he said on the phone. I cannot confirm that.

Last edited by eatsleepboost; 08-03-2018 at 01:55 PM..
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      08-03-2018, 02:05 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eatsleepboost View Post
Edit- In my email with AJ from ESS on Feb 18th he said "the new xpipe will have even higher build quality and better cats". The Canadian part is something I believe he said on the phone. I cannot confirm that.
Very interesting. I don't think anything was 'wrong' with the quality of the cat in the Xpipe I had. It would have failed years ago had that been the case.

Regardless of the cat brand I would no longer run one in the primary cat position... it's just too much heat!
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      08-03-2018, 02:06 PM   #103
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I wonder how much cooler the secondary position is than the primary. That gas is moving pretty fast. Hard to imagine it has time to lose that much heat...

... unless part of it is also the gas expanding, cooling it.
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      08-03-2018, 02:07 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C-los View Post
To be honest, Cat's are often the most forgotten thing to check in this day and age, no thanks to OBD, and many technicians rely on this to know if a cat is bad or not. theres' really only 3 reasons for a cat to go out.

*Missfires/excessive unburned fuel causing them to overheat and break.

*Manufacturer Defect causing them to prematurely fail

*Improper cat type/size/location causing premature failure

The problem with this cat is either:
a) the tune didn't notify him of the failure due to cel suppresion
b) the cat was after the rear oxygen sensor anyways, so the DME would not have been able to measure and notify shadow/technician of the failure anyways, so the mechanics never looked at it.
c) you have either an excessively rich tune, had a misfire you didn't notice causing damage and it just kept getting worse, slowly causing running issues (as you stated) and never being noticed due to either a) or b).

I've seen cats so bad a car won't run. IF you do a compression test it'll show zero or near zero because of a completely clogged cart. (i.e, if no air can escape, no air can enter which would prevent compression from building.
It's funny, because I've had engines not run from a bad cat, and you take out the primary oxygen sensor, there'd be JUST enough exhaust flow for the engine to start.. Probably the reason the valve stem seals blew, i'm curious if it was the exhaust side or he intake side of the seals that went.

Either way, i'm in no way blaming any one company, nor faulting, blaming, or anything of the sort to shadow or his technicians. More of just rambling with random info.

either way, sorry to head about he motor.
I think it was excess heat. Enough heat will kill anything.

It's a shame because the Xpipe had been used in the E92 for multiple years and I only had it on the E90 for a single event, then it died. I checked them while swapping and the cats looked fine.
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      08-03-2018, 02:08 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
I wonder how much cooler the secondary position is than the primary. That gas is moving pretty fast. Hard to imagine it has time to lose that much heat...

... unless part of it is also the gas expanding, cooling it.
Fair question. A nice advantage of having the cat after the xpipe is that if one were to die the flow could go out the other side

Note that multiple Xpipes, including the Evolve one, use that design.

I liked the ESS design because the Xpipe was bought back when I did not track the car. The sound of the ESS Xpipe + Evolve Valvetronic is just about perfect. Then we started tracking and one thing led to another...
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      08-03-2018, 03:02 PM   #106
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When would you get an update on what caused the engine to blow? I am bookmarking this thread and literally checking for updates every day.
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      08-03-2018, 03:02 PM   #107
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Evolve pipe has cats before xpipe! But yes would be a nice feature. So are you putting headers on the e92?
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      08-03-2018, 03:15 PM   #108
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When would you get an update on what caused the engine to blow? I am bookmarking this thread and literally checking for updates every day.
It'll be a while until I can dismount it. For the time being I have identified a short block to revive the car.

I removed the intake and the fan to see if I could rotate the engine. No go. The oil filter has oil with a metallic sheen to it.

It is very likely it was mains.
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      08-03-2018, 03:21 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSY View Post
Evolve pipe has cats before xpipe! But yes would be a nice feature. So are you putting headers on the e92?
You're right. They're as far from the engine as possible but before the X. Still a very different placement than the ESS Xpipe

On the E90:
Oh yes, headers and cams went into it already. The engine died on the dyno.

On the E92, no headers or cams (yet...)

Here are some pics on post 2
https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...23&postcount=2

Last edited by SYT_Shadow; 08-06-2018 at 08:17 AM..
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      08-03-2018, 04:28 PM   #110
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what were the numbers before it died?
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