Secondary Air Pump "delete" on our cars?

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by inTgr8r

Has anyone weighed the SAP system?
I will weigh it when I get to it, just curious if it has been done.
Besides the BMS filters, theres not much to remove up front.
(did the A/C on the Z4MC.... not going there this time )

All of the SAP components weigh 3.6 pounds total. Whoopee.

[inTgr8r]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

All of the SAP components weigh 3.6 pounds total. Whoopee.

Thanks
... yeah, not a lot but it all adds up

[patroklai]

Originally Posted by inTgr8r

dragging up an old thread here....

FWIW, I did this on my Z4MC.
The blanking plate was an OE E36 part number, I'm going to check dimensions on the E92 to see if they are the same.

I had the SAP coded out in the ECU tune, but you get conditional readiness with one item (SAP) not ready.
If you are already CATless its not a big deal to e-install SAP & load the old tune for the test.

Looking to shave any weight possible from the front end, I will likely do the SAP on the M3 as well.


Has anyone weighed the SAP system?
I will weigh it when I get to it, just curious if it has been done.
Besides the BMS filters, theres not much to remove up front.
(did the A/C on the Z4MC.... not going there this time )

If I'm reading this right, deleting SAP via tune will yield a "not ready" monitor for SAP. If so, this is the case with me.

Like you, I have primary cats deleted and tuned out. So This means I basically have two monitors that never set to "ready" and also no CEL.

The problem is that my SAP hardware is bad, and needs replaced but I'm not willing to fork out the $500~ish in repairs. Two monitors set to not ready are an automatic fail where I'm located. I need to renew plates in August so I'm still looking at options.

Pat

[nick380]

Any updates on this being successful. I just contacted a dealership who's on the motorsports center list about the part numbers. I am also curious as to why there are 2 plugs required. Thanks!

[Shredicus]

I've had mine completely removed for about a year. I'm tuned and don't have to smog my car so I can't comment on that aspect.

2x of these
https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...te/11121438086
One goes on the back of each head. Hard as shit to access.

and a rubber cap that fit nicely over the unused port left on the elbow. Secured it with electrical tape.

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by Shredicus

and a rubber cap that fit nicely over the unused port left on the elbow. Secured it with electrical tape.

If you removed the parts and capped the EGR valve ports at the head, what is the rubber cap for? I'm not picturing this...

[Shredicus]

The port that the red circled item in post 1 attaches to on the intake elbow to draw fresh air into the pump. Otherwise you've got a hole sucking in unfiltered air

[C-los]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

Who were you going to source the parts from? Classic (our only MS dealer in TX) will not sell to anyone without an SCCA license or proof that the parts will not be installed onto a street driven car.

Yeup, i was trying to order the Brake Dust plates from them, gave me the same answer. I was like really? for brake dust backing plates? i get if i was buying a crate motor or emissions item but damn....

[jeremyuhh]

dont want to start a new thread, but my SAP stayed on after i shut the car off and was running pretty loud.

Next day got the SAP fault. Seems like its always on now, sounds like i have a supercharger whine, most audible when you let off the throttle.

I have an alpine stage 2 with cold start delete. This is most likely a faulty pump, bad fuse/relay or clogged valves? My question is why its coming on if I have my cold start coded off.

[patroklai]

It will still turn on. Trust me. Since it's not turning off after 30 seconds or so, I think you have a bad relay. It's $11 on rock auto or $17 on Amazon. The pump will burn out if you keep driving it.

Start there, then report.

[jeremyuhh]

Originally Posted by patroklai

It will still turn on. Trust me. Since it's not turning off after 30 seconds or so, I think you have a bad relay. It's $11 on rock auto or $17 on Amazon. The pump will burn out if you keep driving it.

Start there, then report.

87 (40 AMP) Fuse was blown. Replaced it and cleared code. Havent driven the car yet. Will check relay when i get the chance.

What happens if i just pull the relay? will i get a CEL that wont be clearable?

[patroklai]

Originally Posted by jeremyuhh

87 (40 AMP) Fuse was blown. Replaced it and cleared code. Havent driven the car yet. Will check relay when i get the chance.

What happens if i just pull the relay? will i get a CEL that wont be clearable?

Pulling the relay won't hurt. To test the new fuse do the following:

Start car and wait two minutes
Turn car off
Start car and wait 30 seconds
Turn car off

If fuse is blown, you have either have clogged exhaust valves, a seized pump or both. It could also be the relay but at that point less likely.

To test the pump you can remove from car and connect to spare 12v car battery. If it spins, motor is good. If it does not, it's seized.

Replacing the motor will help, but ultimately the real problem are the exhaust valves. They get clogged with carbon build up and eventually can't open (stuck shut).

Then the motor can push air into the exhaust and the excess pressure causes an increase in voltage that blows the fuse.

Alternatively, the exhaust valves could be stuck open and allowing exhaust gas to flow back into the pump thus contaminating it.

Either way, the root of all evil starts with the valves. Though it is possible the pump just decided to go.

Exhaust valves are decently priced $70/ea but the DIY is cruel. I've seen videos of techs dropping the trans and still struggling to get to at least one of the two.

A replacement pump can be a found cheap on ebay. From $35-$50 or so. I can point you to the seller I used.

Happy to help if you have any other questions.

[jeremyuhh]

Originally Posted by patroklai

Pulling the relay won't hurt. To test the new fuse do the following:

Start car and wait two minutes
Turn car off
Start car and wait 30 seconds
Turn car off

If fuse is blown, you have either have clogged exhaust valves, a seized pump or both. It could also be the relay but at that point less likely.

To test the pump you can remove from car and connect to spare 12v car battery. If it spins, motor is good. If it does not, it's seized.

Replacing the motor will help, but ultimately the real problem are the exhaust valves. They get clogged with carbon build up and eventually can't open (stuck shut).

Then the motor can push air into the exhaust and the excess pressure causes an increase in voltage that blows the fuse.

Alternatively, the exhaust valves could be stuck open and allowing exhaust gas to flow back into the pump thus contaminating it.

Either way, the root of all evil starts with the valves. Though it is possible the pump just decided to go.

Exhaust valves are decently priced $70/ea but the DIY is cruel. I've seen videos of techs dropping the trans and still struggling to get to at least one of the two.

A replacement pump can be a found cheap on ebay. From $35-$50 or so. I can point you to the seller I used.

Happy to help if you have any other questions.

did that start up procedure, and no cel.
did it again as i was about to leave for work, got a cel.
cleared code, drove 50 miles round trip, checked the 87 fuse, NOT blown.

I just pulled my relay right now, will test it. Ill see if i can also test the SAP.

[patroklai]

Testing the fuse is a bit convoluted. But if you have a multimeter and a 12v battery, totally doable.

Testing the pump is easier. Just use alligator clips to hook up to the 12v battery.

Good luck!

[jeremyuhh]

Originally Posted by patroklai

Testing the fuse is a bit convoluted. But if you have a multimeter and a 12v battery, totally doable.

Testing the pump is easier. Just use alligator clips to hook up to the 12v battery.

Good luck!

I pulled the relay, still hear the whine. Not even sure it's the secondary air pump anymore.

Even pulled the fuse as well, which was still NOT blown.

Now my eyes and ears are playing games with me and it sounds like the whine is coming from the water pump. BUT I'm getting an increased emissions warning, and my temps are perfect.

This whine is dependent on RPMs. Gone at idle but sound will increase when I apply throttle.

[jeremyuhh]

Tested the relay, switch works with 0 resistance when powered. Dont have a test light to check draw.

SAP works, tested it with a 12V battery and spins just fine.

Im going to replace all the sensors before pointing to the valves. fingers crossed.

[patroklai]

I'm starting to think it's something else. If you are hearing a whine without the relay or fuse on the car then no way that pump is turning on. It's going to be something else. Maybe even vaccum leak? Or one of the pulleys or accessories hooked up to one.

[Jkan]

Originally Posted by jeremyuhh

I pulled the relay, still hear the whine. Not even sure it's the secondary air pump anymore.

Even pulled the fuse as well, which was still NOT blown.

Now my eyes and ears are playing games with me and it sounds like the whine is coming from the water pump. BUT I'm getting an increased emissions warning, and my temps are perfect.

This whine is dependent on RPMs. Gone at idle but sound will increase when I apply throttle.

Trying to pinpoint a SAP problem myself too.

But, you can test the entire circuit system by leaving everything in except the relay. Then push a wire into relay socket where relay pin 30 and 87 would go (top center and right center). The air pump should come on. In that case, you know your fuse, relay socket and wiring to the pump all work as it should. Then you can test the relay (but you already have new relay).

That’s about as far as I got. If that all work, I’d presume it’s something after the pump, so a leak/clog tube to the valves… or the valve stuck, or I’ve read possibly the valve passage inside the head. I’ve read it could be a bad pre cat o2 sensor throwing the readings off too… but I presumed it would’ve thrown another code? Worth checking anyways via live data.

[patroklai]

Did you ever get this fixed?

[jeremyuhh]

Originally Posted by patroklai

Did you ever get this fixed?

Negative. I removed the passenger side valve, and cleaned it best i could. attempted the driver side but gave up and lost motivation. After re-installing all my components, I noticed the connector of the long air hose at my macht Schnell elbow was loose. See pic.

So I screwed it back in and the strange sound went away but was still getting the increased emissions warning. Happens every other morning only during cold start - I just clear the code. Any other time I start the car after being driven, it does not appear.

I replaced the fuse and the relay works as should after testing it. I have a feeling either that back hose needs to be replaced or the both valves. Or the whole air pump system.

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by jeremyuhh

87 (40 AMP) Fuse was blown. Replaced it and cleared code. Havent driven the car yet. Will check relay when i get the chance.

What happens if i just pull the relay? will i get a CEL that wont be clearable?

Pulling the relay will cause a secondary air relay fault on the second startup. If the fuse continues to blow, the pump is frozen/bad and is drawing too much current. We had a a car a couple years ago that was a real fun one.. Customer took it to multiple shops and no one could fix FA.

It had a bad fuse for the mini HFM, bad relay, bad fuse for the pump, and a bad pump! After we troubleshooted each issue one step at a time, it was all perfect and still working years later. If you guys think this SA system is bad, the E39 M5 will really blow your mind

[patroklai]

🤣 I believe it. Fixing my own SAP issues took like two years (mostly laziness), but felt like chasing a ghost. Lol