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      09-18-2020, 11:45 AM   #1
byroncheung
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lead-follow in covid19 HPDE?

Haven't been back to HPDE this year yet, I see most of the groups are doing "lead-follow" format instead of in-car instruction for novice / intermediate group.

Has anyone tried this "lead-follow" format? I'm not entire sure how it will be ran I haven't seen a detailed description of it. How did you like it compared to the traditional in-car instruction?
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      09-18-2020, 12:06 PM   #2
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Not sure for an HDPE but the BMW M school runs this format, you never have in car instruction. Instructor will generally keep a pace and slow down if they see you struggling or speed up based on your comfort level. If they see you making mistakes they'll dial it back. I'm not sure if they'll have in car radios to provide you specific feedback or not.

Having done a few different events in that format it's not bad, it's harder for them to give you very specific timed instructions for braking points etc, but if you focus on driving (rather than keeping your bumper stuck to them) it's still useful time out there.
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      09-18-2020, 12:11 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by byroncheung View Post
Haven't been back to HPDE this year yet, I see most of the groups are doing "lead-follow" format instead of in-car instruction for novice / intermediate group.

Has anyone tried this "lead-follow" format? I'm not entire sure how it will be ran I haven't seen a detailed description of it. How did you like it compared to the traditional in-car instruction?
Lead-follow works well if the instructors have been trained to do it. I've had instruction via "in-car" and "lead-follow" and they each have their benefits. My one concern about lead-follow in the Covid era is that instructors are being put into a situation where they haven't been trained to do lead-follow just so the HPDE can happen. So, I would inquire about how long the organization has been using this format and what sort of training the instructors have for lead-follow before committing to attending.

Just my thoughts.
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      09-18-2020, 01:01 PM   #4
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Lead-follow is fine for learning the basic racing line, but there's really no interactivity to it except some beforehand or after-the-fact "here's why we turn in late on corner X".
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      09-18-2020, 01:38 PM   #5
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In the case of in-car instruction, cars are spaced out as much as possible, and slower cars will let faster cars pass, in an effort to allow everyone to push their car close to where their skills allow.

How would that aspect play out in the lead-follow format? Is each student car lead by a dedicated instructor? Will passings still be allowed? Or it will just be a long train of cars with pace dictated by the slowest car happen to be in front of you in the line?
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      09-18-2020, 02:15 PM   #6
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Lead-follow is never at 10/10ths. Too many different skill levels and performance levels, plus it's risky for inexperienced drivers to be going that fast in proximity to another car of unknown skill. The instructors will typically increase the pace once they see everyone can still keep up.

They need to be able to see everyone in their mirrors so no one will really get that spread out.
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      09-18-2020, 07:01 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by byroncheung View Post
In the case of in-car instruction, cars are spaced out as much as possible, and slower cars will let faster cars pass, in an effort to allow everyone to push their car close to where their skills allow.

How would that aspect play out in the lead-follow format? Is each student car lead by a dedicated instructor? Will passings still be allowed? Or it will just be a long train of cars with pace dictated by the slowest car happen to be in front of you in the line?
It depends on the club, and the run group, but passing is allowed, but should be the entire group, which if an instructor has 2 students becomes trickier. Some tracks only have a few spots to allow 2-3 cars to pass in quick succession. At least initially trains seem to be a bigger problem in lead-follow than in-car, as to be expected.
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      09-18-2020, 08:27 PM   #8
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I've instructed at 6 events so far this year between SCCA and NASA, at least here in the DMV area, they are leaving it up to the students/instructors whether they are comfortable with in car instructing - which is preferred. NASA at first was doing 1 leader per 3 followers... we quickly learned this was a nightmare and just didn't work well with traffic and various skill level students. 1 to 1 is the way to go, you can learn a lot by letting your instructor follow you and give feedback, and of course following him/her. Most importantly there needs to be some type of download after the session otherwise it's pretty pointless
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      09-21-2020, 04:43 PM   #9
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ok so sounds like lead-follow is kinda dicey and also tricky when the track is filled with cars with different skill level. guess i just have to wait when things get more normal to go back...
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      09-21-2020, 06:25 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by byroncheung View Post
ok so sounds like lead-follow is kinda dicey and also tricky when the track is filled with cars with different skill level. guess i just have to wait when things get more normal to go back...
A good club should use lead-follow with drivers of the same run group.
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      09-22-2020, 09:28 AM   #11
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I instructed with BMW CCA at Hallett last weekend. Great event and track, BTW! Every novice driver had an instructor, and the intermediate group had 1:3 ratio.

I thought it worked out very well for the novice group. Good prep meeting that included instructors was key. Passing was emphasized. The lead instructors control passing and speed so we rarely experienced trains. The key is to have the student stay pretty close - two to four car lengths. The student helps dictate speed with their distance. As others have mentioned, debriefing after each session is critical, but I always do this anyway. By mid-day Sunday, my student was driving as smoothly and quickly as he would have if I was riding right seat - maybe faster. I think lead/follow is more of a challenge with multiple drivers at varying levels in intermediate, but you can start to have them lead.

Next event at MSR Cresson in November so come on out!
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      09-22-2020, 10:01 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbyrd View Post
I instructed with BMW CCA at Hallett last weekend. Great event and track, BTW! Every novice driver had an instructor, and the intermediate group had 1:3 ratio.

I thought it worked out very well for the novice group. Good prep meeting that included instructors was key. Passing was emphasized. The lead instructors control passing and speed so we rarely experienced trains. The key is to have the student stay pretty close - two to four car lengths. The student helps dictate speed with their distance. As others have mentioned, debriefing after each session is critical, but I always do this anyway. By mid-day Sunday, my student was driving as smoothly and quickly as he would have if I was riding right seat - maybe faster. I think lead/follow is more of a challenge with multiple drivers at varying levels in intermediate, but you can start to have them lead.

Next event at MSR Cresson in November so come on out!
Hopefully, one of the many positives of covid will be we finally figure out that we don't need helpless, vulnerable sacks of meat to ride shotgun to teach people who want to learn how to drive good and do other stuff good too
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      09-22-2020, 10:42 AM   #13
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I did a BMW 2-day M school in July, and the instructors there did a 2 student group lead follow. All cars have a walkie-talkie and we agreed that it is a 1-way radio from the instructor unless there is an emergency or problem. The instructor will allow the 2 students to switch positions who is following the instructor a few times during the session to get a feel for each student. As we picked up the pace, the instructor adjusted to the pace of both students to average out the pace. If the slower student was behind, that student would be in the middle and have a little more 1on1 to help improve their pace. It was a great way to instruct IMO.
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      06-04-2021, 11:11 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
Hopefully, one of the many positives of covid will be we finally figure out that we don't need helpless, vulnerable sacks of meat to ride shotgun to teach people who want to learn how to drive good and do other stuff good too
Randomly discovered this thread, I am afraid it seems to be reverting back to the norm of putting sacks of meat who are there for free track time.

I asked someone who seemed to be instructing how it was for a program I wanted to test out (not going to mention to tarnish the program for this one keyboard warrior)

but when I inquired what COVID safety precautions were in place they responded with instructors will be sure of no symptoms blah blah, so then I responded bluntly "so there aren't any real COVID safety precautions", you could have sworn I stole their baby.

People really don't want their free track time or discount track time taken away! lol
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      06-19-2021, 11:26 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grip Addict View Post
Randomly discovered this thread, I am afraid it seems to be reverting back to the norm of putting sacks of meat who are there for free track time.

I asked someone who seemed to be instructing how it was for a program I wanted to test out (not going to mention to tarnish the program for this one keyboard warrior)

but when I inquired what COVID safety precautions were in place they responded with instructors will be sure of no symptoms blah blah, so then I responded bluntly "so there aren't any real COVID safety precautions", you could have sworn I stole their baby.

People really don't want their free track time or discount track time taken away! lol
I think it completely depends on the group you are running with. I am in the medical world, I am still pretty militant about staying safe as I still have too much to lose... I have been instructing with PCA regions that require masks, but past couple have required proof of vaccinations. (I realize this is not a popular stance with some, but don't shoot the messenger, just reporting what I saw).

While I certainly can't speak for others, there are some of us who take our instructor role seriously. Honestly, there are some weekends that I have as much fun in the right seat as the left.
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      06-19-2021, 12:38 PM   #16
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I think it completely depends on the group you are running with. I am in the medical world, I am still pretty militant about staying safe as I still have too much to lose... I have been instructing with PCA regions that require masks, but past couple have required proof of vaccinations. (I realize this is not a popular stance with some, but don't shoot the messenger, just reporting what I saw).

While I certainly can't speak for others, there are some of us who take our instructor role seriously. Honestly, there are some weekends that I have as much fun in the right seat as the left.
Haha no worries about shooting the messenger.

Pre-COVID, I saw the need for instructing, but only for people who want to get faster or perfect their craft. There are so many starter programs now like Track Night or others doing lead/follow programs where putting a potential meat sack in the passenger seat isn't needed.

The current-COVID (not saying POST as it isn't gone), I just cannot fathom the mindset of requiring someone to sit next to me who may or may not be vaccinated, wearing a mask or not, windows down or not.

Regardless of my personal views, I believe the vetting for instructors to be much like any job. One year a college degree is required, then the next year you really need people to instruct so you lower it to a HS diploma only. Then next year you have the numbers so back up to college degree. Same sort of mindset can vet instructors who probably even in your instructor experience can say they have no business instructing and are there for free track time.

I am fully aware that I probably just have horrible luck with instructors and have seen the far negative end of the spectrum, but at this point with my only like 1-2 track days a year. I only do events where I don't need someone in the passenger seat or it is optional.
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      06-19-2021, 06:10 PM   #17
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I completely understand your point. Unfortunately I have seen more examples of your experience than I want to admit. Fortunately the problem has been noted and there is a movement to address that very issue. The Motorsports Safety Foundation has developed a problem to vet and train us to be more effective instructors. Our hope is that over time it will help to weed out and or raise the level of the whole sport. Unfortunately this will not change overnight, but we are working on it. I will say, I continue to work with other instructors, as since my name is not Auburlin, I look forward to learning more every time. I do hope that you will find the correct individual that will be the proper fit. When you do, it has the potential to make amazing changes.

As for Covid? Well we are all going to have to learn a new normal.
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      06-19-2021, 07:59 PM   #18
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Quote:
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I completely understand your point. Unfortunately I have seen more examples of your experience than I want to admit. Fortunately the problem has been noted and there is a movement to address that very issue. The Motorsports Safety Foundation has developed a problem to vet and train us to be more effective instructors. Our hope is that over time it will help to weed out and or raise the level of the whole sport. Unfortunately this will not change overnight, but we are working on it. I will say, I continue to work with other instructors, as since my name is not Auburlin, I look forward to learning more every time. I do hope that you will find the correct individual that will be the proper fit. When you do, it has the potential to make amazing changes.

As for Covid? Well we are all going to have to learn a new normal.
I appreciate your honesty on your first comment. I am glad some changes are happening to make it all work better and to potentially weed out the free track time guys.
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      06-21-2021, 09:40 PM   #19
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The June 2021 issue of Roundel has a good column piece from Dave Farnsworth titled "Follow the Leader to Driving Skill" with instructor and driver perspectives of lead-follow. It includes a thought on Dunning Kruger effect on lead-follow and being lulled into just following instead of focusing on the details.
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      06-22-2021, 12:47 AM   #20
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The the local BMW CCA chapter had their yearly track event and it was lead/follow for the intermediate and novice tiers. Even with I think everyone being vaccinated (checked during registration, had to wear a mask and didn't get the special wristband otherwise) the BMW CCA HQ mandated that it had to be lead/follow only.

I was solo so I didn't have an instructor, but for other it was about 2 students per instructor. The first day seemed to be a bit messy. I think the two biggest issues were groups being split up when they were pointed by (two students and instructor pointing by another two students and instructor) in passing zones and people going out of sight (either one student being too slow, or one student speeding away from instructors in slower cars) from the instructor when the pace changed significantly. Traffic is certainly a problem, especially on smaller tracks and those with few and short passing zones.

On the second day, it seemed to run much smoother and the students with the quick cars were allowed to stretch their legs so everyone stayed happy. Everyone seem to be quicker on the uptake for allowing groups to pass so that didn't seem to be an issue. I think a hybrid format would work really well in the novice groups. That's great to have compared to having just a single instructor for reference points.

When you're working on your lines, lead/follow is great. Once you're in upper intermediate and advanced, you get the benefit of the same experience in traffic but from multiple "instructors." I overheard someone after one of my sessions saying they followed me for a few corners, then tried my line and found quite a bit of lap time.
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      06-23-2021, 10:35 AM   #21
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I'm sure there is a way to do lead/follow well but I haven't seen anyone do it yet.

I don't instruct with BMWCCA often, but I've done this lead/follow a couple times and it was a complete clusterfuck.

Fortunately PCA has had in person instruction throughout the pandemic through a opt-in process. At least that way the student learns something instead of wondering WTF is happening through the session.

Lead/follow could be done pretty well with wireless headsets like the SENA stuff, where you can talk to your student while in different cars.


In the end, instructing is supposed to help the students overcome their limitations. I have yet to hear any positive feedback about lead/follow from any student. Indeed, what I hear from the students is how frustrated they are with lead/follow and the lack of communication throughout the session

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      06-23-2021, 10:54 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ximian View Post

When you're working on your lines, lead/follow is great. Once you're in upper intermediate and advanced, you get the benefit of the same experience in traffic but from multiple "instructors." I overheard someone after one of my sessions saying they followed me for a few corners, then tried my line and found quite a bit of lap time.
This. I recently did a BMWCCA event and requested an in-car instructor. I did lead follow the last time and it was good but I wanted to go TC off this time and thought an in-car instructor would be better.

It was much better, but at the same time, following some of the faster cars was helpful and so were the coaching sessions after each run. The result was a bump to solo, but I don't think I would've been comfy without my instructor(dude was awesome).

I think BMWCCA HQ is relaxing their covid stuff now though, so it should get better.
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