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      03-27-2020, 07:35 PM   #23
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s65 is dead asleep under 4k rpm.... merging into traffic from a stop is a pain 5k and up is when you wake the beast up though and is crazy.
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      03-27-2020, 07:47 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by North.E92 View Post
s65 is dead asleep under 4k rpm.... merging into traffic from a stop is a pain 5k and up is when you wake the beast up though and is crazy.
You're right. Get a BPM tune and you will grin even from down low rpms.
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      03-28-2020, 07:26 AM   #25
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Power/torque and engine responsiveness are two different things.

Yes, in the E90 overwhelming power/torque isn't always on tap, but there's ZERO lag between your right foot and engine response. Throttle sharpness and engine responsiveness are M specialties.
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      03-28-2020, 11:48 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
Power/torque and engine responsiveness are two different things.

Yes, in the E90 overwhelming power/torque isn't always on tap, but there's ZERO lag between your right foot and engine response. Throttle sharpness and engine responsiveness are M specialties.
Agree completely. Following on:
From owning an E39 M5 for 15 years and the E90 M3 for many years at the same time (sold the M5 in June 2018), initially it was easy to fall prey to an invalid comparison. A prime example would be 2nd gear at 2500 rpms and nail it. The M5 was a torque beast with a huge shove in the gut. However, the true comparison is done on equivalent road speeds. At the same road speed as the M5 in 2nd at 2500rpms, the M3 in 2nd would be turning 3800-3900 rpms. A huge difference, but the more applicable comparison too. Even though the M5 had that gut hit torque feel, starting from the same road speed, the M3 would leave it behind every time.
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      03-28-2020, 02:50 PM   #27
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A catless xpipe and tune really wake the car up. I don’t feel the need to wind mine out all the time to get around in normal driving. Certainly it’s thrilling from 5500-8500. It’s also not going to pull hard at 2000 in 4th, 5th or 6th. But mine will light up 295/35/18 rear tires from a few mph roll in 1st gear. The torque multiplication from the short gearing helps compensate from the relatively low torque that you must accept as part of a high revving 4.0L V8.
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      03-29-2020, 09:49 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
Agree completely. Following on:
From owning an E39 M5 for 15 years and the E90 M3 for many years at the same time (sold the M5 in June 2018), initially it was easy to fall prey to an invalid comparison. A prime example would be 2nd gear at 2500 rpms and nail it. The M5 was a torque beast with a huge shove in the gut. However, the true comparison is done on equivalent road speeds. At the same road speed as the M5 in 2nd at 2500rpms, the M3 in 2nd would be turning 3800-3900 rpms. A huge difference, but the more applicable comparison too. Even though the M5 had that gut hit torque feel, starting from the same road speed, the M3 would leave it behind every time.
I made the same transition (E39 -> E90) and owned both for a time. That was a privilege.

Agreed. Remember taking the E39 out in cold weather one time and being convinced it was the much faster car. S62 in cold temps was a total fricking monster. Capable of spinning all seasons in 4th gear @ 80 mph and 4,000 rpm (been almost a decade, I think that was the speed & rpm match.)

S65 is sharper and smoother, but definitely not as torquey. BMW used to make some epic engines. But even with the transition to turbos they've managed to keep the throttle sharpness and engine responsiveness. GTS in sport plus is like operating a hair trigger.
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      05-16-2020, 01:47 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
The S65 vs S55 response I compare all the time. As I've said before, the S55 is like a meat cleaver versus a scalpel with the S65. For example when drifting, you have to use large throttle movements with the S55 (in the M2C) and you're more managing a molasses like pedal feeling (compared to the S65) with massive torque just waiting to surge on scene. It's actually manageable fine once you acclimate to it - better than I thought it would be for a turbo engine, way better in fact. The S65 however feels precise, exacting, gives almost digital like control over rear wheel slip angle; it feels more connected to the chassis, alive underfoot.
Really well stated. Thanks for that
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      05-17-2020, 09:26 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
I can second the S65 to S55 comparison CSBM5 makes.
The S55 has much better throttle response than a turbo engine has a right to have, it is quite good and allows you to control the car with the throttle very well. Kudos to the M engineers who, as always, deliver excellent engines. One day they'll make one that runs on peanut butter and it'll still be awesome. [FYI: comment comes from a serial hater of anything turbo]
The S65 however is much, much more precise. The individual throttle bodies of the S54/S65 give it very fast response, it is the best thing I've ever driven. The amount of control you have at the limit is completely insane.

I put 100k miles on my E46M and don't recall a speed of response difference, they are both individual throttle body engines. But although the S54 is awesome and wonderful and I will always love it, the S65 takes it to another level.

These days I am breaking in a S65 M3 with headers, cams and the loudest exhaust known to mankind and it is exciting in a way nothing else is.
Quoting myself to add some info

Recently I did a mountain drive with my brother, one in the E92 and the other in the F80 CS. This is pretty rare as we're usually in the same car vs two, and also because we very seldom do any kind of mountain road driving in the US
The E92 is 6MT, 382whp, what people would typically refer to as 'full bolt on'
The CS is completely stock powerwise. Dyno'd with the E92 it gets 432whp.

A few notes from the drive:
-in twisty roads:
the CS seems to have a ton of lag. You press the throttle, nothing happens, then it boosts, melts your face off and immediately you're braking for the next turn. It feels quite imprecise in tighter turns in terms of power application. The E92's throttle is incredibly sharp and although down on power, it usually accelerates much longer in each gear -as it starts accelerating at least a second before the CS starts doing useful things- so even if that acceleration is smaller, doing it for more time yields better results.
-on the highway:
The typical WOT bursts to avoid a moron from cutting you off, the WOT bursts to pass a left lane hog... the e92 also performs much better. In 6th at highway+ speeds it accelerates immediately and has a good amount of power. In the CS following it you need to shift to 5th if you want to follow

In a tightish mountain road my money would be on an E92.

Where the CS really shines is at the racetrack, where throttle applications last many seconds, the turns are known so you can minimize turbolag and the high power output really makes a difference. Plotting SoloDL data together of the same track the speed difference is monumental

Last edited by SYT_Shadow; 05-17-2020 at 05:18 PM..
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      05-17-2020, 05:09 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Quoting myself to add some info

Recently I did a mountain drive with my brother, one in the E92 and the other in the F80 CS. This is pretty rare as we're usually in the same car vs two, and also because we very seldom to any kind of mountain road driving in the US
The E92 is 6MT, 382whp, what people would typically refer to as 'full bolt on'
The CS is completely stock powerwise. Dyno'd with the E92 it gets 432whp.

A few notes from the drive:
-in twisty roads:
the CS seems to have a ton of lag. You press the throttle, nothing happens, then it boosts, melts your face off and immediately you're braking for the next turn. It feels quite imprecise in tighter turns in terms of power application. The E92's throttle is incredibly sharp and although down on power, it usually accelerates much longer in each gear so even if that acceleration is smaller, doing it for more time yields better results.
-on the highway:
The typical WOT bursts to avoid a moron from cutting you off, the WOT bursts to pass a left lane hog... the e92 also performs much better. In 6th at highway+ speeds it accelerates immediately and has a good amount of power. In the CS following it you need to shift to 5th if you want to follow

In a tightish mountain road my money would be on an E92.

Where the CS really shines is at the racetrack, where throttle applications last many seconds, the turns are known so you can minimize turbolag and the high power output really makes a difference. Plotting SoloDL data together of the same track the speed difference is monumental
These are excellent insights, clearly coming from someone with deep experience with these - thanks!
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      05-18-2020, 08:11 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Quoting myself to add some info

Recently I did a mountain drive with my brother, one in the E92 and the other in the F80 CS. This is pretty rare as we're usually in the same car vs two, and also because we very seldom do any kind of mountain road driving in the US
The E92 is 6MT, 382whp, what people would typically refer to as 'full bolt on'
The CS is completely stock powerwise. Dyno'd with the E92 it gets 432whp.

A few notes from the drive:
-in twisty roads:
the CS seems to have a ton of lag. You press the throttle, nothing happens, then it boosts, melts your face off and immediately you're braking for the next turn. It feels quite imprecise in tighter turns in terms of power application. The E92's throttle is incredibly sharp and although down on power, it usually accelerates much longer in each gear -as it starts accelerating at least a second before the CS starts doing useful things- so even if that acceleration is smaller, doing it for more time yields better results.
-on the highway:
The typical WOT bursts to avoid a moron from cutting you off, the WOT bursts to pass a left lane hog... the e92 also performs much better. In 6th at highway+ speeds it accelerates immediately and has a good amount of power. In the CS following it you need to shift to 5th if you want to follow

In a tightish mountain road my money would be on an E92.

Where the CS really shines is at the racetrack, where throttle applications last many seconds, the turns are known so you can minimize turbolag and the high power output really makes a difference. Plotting SoloDL data together of the same track the speed difference is monumental
That's interesting. Does the CS not have the "on/off" Sport Plus throttle characteristic of the GTS?
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      05-18-2020, 08:20 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
That's interesting. Does the CS not have the "on/off" Sport Plus throttle characteristic of the GTS?
I run the CS on sport, I find sport+ too brusque.

Usually I don't feel like the CS has a lot of lag. At the track for sure it is quite precise, as it is very different to be in a racetrack where you know the layout and open the throttle as the right time vs a mountain road you don't know so you hesitate, open/close/open, etc etc.
But comparing it to the E92 back to back is a little unfair, as the E92 has some of the best throttle responses ever.

Last year I did a back to back mountain road course with a friend in a 991.2 GT3 6MT, switching cars halfway. The first thing he said after driving the E92 is he couldn't believe how instant the throttle response was. [GT3 single throttle body, E92 individual]

A third friend was with us yesterday with a M2C 6MT. The M2C seemed to have less lag than the CS, although was significantly less powerful as well. Both my brother and I drove all 3 cars and had the same conclusions.
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      05-18-2020, 08:43 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
I run the CS on sport, I find sport+ too brusque.

Usually I don't feel like the CS has a lot of lag. At the track for sure it is quite precise, as it is very different to be in a racetrack where you know the layout and open the throttle as the right time vs a mountain road you don't know so you hesitate, open/close/open, etc etc.
But comparing it to the E92 back to back is a little unfair, as the E92 has some of the best throttle responses ever.

Last year I did a back to back mountain road course with a friend in a 991.2 GT3 6MT, switching cars halfway. The first thing he said after driving the E92 is he couldn't believe how instant the throttle response was. [GT3 single throttle body, E92 individual]

A third friend was with us yesterday with a M2C 6MT. The M2C seemed to have less lag than the CS, although was significantly less powerful as well. Both my brother and I drove all 3 cars and had the same conclusions.
Yep. E9X power button on, engine revs up (especially), I've not experienced more immediate throttle response. Also includes .2 GT3.

Son goaded me into a quick acceleration run the other day. Started in 2nd, 5k revs.

Did the whole "you ready?" exchange. Soon as he uttered the "y" in "yes" i nailed it. Wasn't sufficiently braced, see his body pin back against the seat out of the corner of my eye.

His first comment was, "whoa, that scared me a little, I wasn't ready for it."
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      05-18-2020, 09:03 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
Yep. E9X power button on, engine revs up (especially), I've not experienced more immediate throttle response. Also includes .2 GT3.

Son goaded me into a quick acceleration run the other day. Started in 2nd, 5k revs.

Did the whole "you ready?" exchange. Soon as he uttered the "y" in "yes" i nailed it. Wasn't sufficiently braced, see his body pin back against the seat out of the corner of my eye.

His first comment was, "whoa, that scared me a little, I wasn't ready for it."
sounds like an awesome father-son bonding moment!
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      05-18-2020, 09:35 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
sounds like an awesome father-son bonding moment!
He gets lulled by the E90 appearance and our usual daily drives, underestimates the old girl. Thinks anything that's properly fast comes with a wing, wickerbill, or ferrari badge (not my influence, born tifosi somehow).

Was a good opportunity to remind him don't eff with the M3.

If he only knew what it was capable of in street + track spec
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      05-18-2020, 09:42 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
He gets lulled by the E90 appearance and our usual daily drives, underestimates the old girl. Thinks anything that's properly fast comes with a wing, wickerbill, or ferrari badge (not my influence, born tifosi somehow).

Was a good opportunity to remind him don't eff with the M3.

If he only knew what it was capable of in street + track spec
The E9X punches above its weight with the gearing and super linear delivery which translates into lots of grip.
I am really happy with the stroker E90 build, tons and tons of power while maintaining all the good things of the E9X generation.
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      05-18-2020, 11:48 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post

Yep. E9X power button on, engine revs up (especially), I've not experienced more immediate throttle response. Also includes .2 GT3.

Son goaded me into a quick acceleration run the other day. Started in 2nd, 5k revs.

Did the whole "you ready?" exchange. Soon as he uttered the "y" in "yes" i nailed it. Wasn't sufficiently braced, see his body pin back against the seat out of the corner of my eye.

His first comment was, "whoa, that scared me a little, I wasn't ready for it."
I had a similar experience a couple weeks ago with my dad as the passenger. He'd driven my car a few times before, but never revved it up, so I took him out on the parkway for a spirited drive. Kept it in 2nd in the merging lane with the throttle on boil, then opened it up as soon as I had an opening. Redlined 2nd and ran 3rd up to around 7k before backing off to avoid getting arrested.

My dad's no stranger to motor sports; he used to own/drive a spec racer Ford and has been around cars forever - but the E90 legit scared him a little 😂

Funny enough, my kids aren't impressed. They're much more interested in Teslas or anything with bells, whistles, gadgets and screens.
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